--- In
norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "nikolai_sandbeck" <nikolai_sandbeck@...> wrote:
>
> I bought the book "A new introduction to old norse" and it is really great. but there is an example on page 36, I don't get becuase I don't understand the explanation.
>
> Hon var hverri konu fríðari
> "she was then-every woman more-beautiful"
> "she was more beautiful than any other woman"
>
> "Konu" (weak dat. f. sg) modified by "hverri", is the second proposition in a comparative structure - the proposition denoting the entitiy with which the comparison is made (i.e., taking every other woman as the basis - the standard by which "she" is to be judged - "she" is more beautiful); in Old Norse the basis of the comparison may be expressed either by the dative, as here, or by the conjuction "en" (than) (3.8, 3.8, 2.4) + the appropriate case.
>
>
> I don't get the words "proposition" and "entity".
This is a specialised/technical use of the word "proposition". I can easily see how this might be confusing. In linguistic jargon, the two propositions of a comparative structure are the two things which are compared to each other. The first proposition is what's being compared, and the second proposition is what the first is being compared to. In this example, the first proposition is the pronoun 'hon' "she", and the second proposition is 'hverri konu' "any [other] woman" (dative).
The words "first" and "second" here refer to the order of these two words or phrases in an English comparative sentence. But in technical writing on linguistics, they're used in a more general sense, so that "second proposition" means that part of a comparative sentance in any language (such as Old Norse) which performs the same function (plays/fulfills the same role, does the same job, has the same purpose) as the second part of the corresponding/equivalent English comparative sentence--that's to say, the part that comes after "than" in English--even if, in the language being discussed, the order is the opposite of English! For example, with the same order in Old Norse and English:
(1) sjaldan verða kvistir betri en aðaltré
"seldom are twigs better than the trunk"
FIRST PROPOSITION: 'kvistir' "twigs"
SECOND PROPOSITION: 'aðaltré' "trunk"
Or with Old Norse having the opposite order to English:
(2) þér meiri menn
"men bigger than you"
FIRST PROPOSITION: 'menn' "men"
SECOND PROPOSITION: 'þér' "(than) you" (dative)
"Entity" is just a very general word that means "thing", "creature" or "person". It's not a very colloquial word in English, but neither is it being used here in a specialised or technical sense. The two entities mentioned are 'hon' and 'hverri konu'. In linguistic terminology, these are noun phrases, one consisting of a single pronoun, the other consisting of a noun 'konu' and a modifier 'hverri'. But I guess the author chose the general term "entity" to suggest that it could be anything that's being compared. For example, either one of the propositions (or both of them) could be a whole clause beginning with 'at...'. In the following example, it's the second proposition that's the 'at' clause.
(2) ok er þat betra en at lifa með skömm
"and that is better than to live with shame"
FIRST PROPOSITION: 'þat' "that"
SECOND PROPOSITION: 'at lifa með skömm' "to live with shame", "living with shame"
The clause can be more complex too, as this example from Modern Icelandic:
(3) Einn ávöxtur áður en þú ferð að heiman er betri en að fara með alveg tóman maga í skólann.
"One fruit before you leave the house is better than going to school on a completely empty stomach."
FIRST PROPOSITION: 'Einn ávöxtur áður en þú ferð að heiman' "[eating] one fruit before you leave the house"
SECOND PROPOSITION: 'að fara með alveg tóman maga í skólann' "going to school on a completely empty stomach"
> And i am unsure what they mean about "approproate case"
> I don't know if it is dative or accusative.
Again, I can well understand how this could be confusing. What they mean is that when "en" is used, the second proposition can be in any case, depending on the context. That is to say: the case is determined by the rest of the sentence, not by 'en'. Very often it's nominative, as in example (1) above:
(1) sjaldan verða kvistir betri en aðaltré
"seldom are twigs better than the trunk"
'aðaltré' is nominative because it's the subject of an unspoken 'verðr'. Other ways this could be translated into English, which all mean the same:
"Seldom are twigs better than the trunk (is)."
"Seldom do twigs turn out to be better than the trunk (does)".
"Twigs rarely prove better than the trunk (proves/does)."
But the second proposition takes whatever case is required by its role in the sentence. So if it's the complement of a verb or preposition that takes the accusative, it will be accusative. If it's the complement of a verb or preposition that takes dative it will be dative. And likewise genitive. In the following example, 'málaefnin' is neuter accusative plural because it's the object of the verb 'hafa' "to have". Notice that, as in example (1), the verb is only implied (left unspoken) because it's the same as the verb that comes before the 'en', but it still determines the case.
(4) Sýnist þat nú enn, at betri málaefnin hefi ek en þit bræðr.
"It is now still apparent that I have better circumstances than you (have) brothers."
Actually, that's not a very good example to illustrate the point with because the neuter nominative happens to be the same in form as the accusative. I'll keep a look out for a better one. Or maybe someone else can think of one. But hopefully you get the idea.
> thanks =)
You're welcome. Thanks for your patience! Please let me know if any of my explanations were confusing, or if I didn't fully answer any of your questions, and I'll try to clarify.