Re: Lesson question

Indeed, there are some tricky issues here. Let's take some examples from
the modern language. We have a common colloquial word for a child,
'krakki', corresponding approximately to 'kid'. Now, this is a masculine
word but it can be applied to children of both sexes. Let's imagine a
situation with a group with children of both sexes - the kids are here and
they're hungry. How would I say that? If I do it with two sentences it may
go something like this:

#1 Krakkarnir eru komnir. Þeir eru svangir.
#2 Krakkarnir eru komnir. Þau eru svöng.

Some pedants might insist that #1 is the only correct way but I think #2
is perfectly acceptable and something many people would say. As long as I
get to start a new sentence I feel free to revert to the natural gender.
But what if I get less of a break?

#3 Krakkarnir eru komnir og eru svöng.
#4 Krakkarnir eru komnir og svöng.
#5 Krakkarnir eru komin og svöng.

I think #3 is a borderline sentence and #4 is probably not acceptable
while #5 is even less acceptable.

While English doesn't have grammatical gender which can be at odds with
natural gender I think something similar may be seen in that language. It
certainly has grammatical number and there's ample opportunity for that to
be at odds with the natural number. Consider these examples:

#1 The Government is minded to support the amendment.
#2 The Government are minded to support the amendment.

I understand #1 is acceptable for all English speakers but #2 is chiefly
acceptable in Britain. A government is an abstract entity but it's also a
group of people. The latter conception can, at least in British English,
lead to a natural plural overriding the grammatical singular. Isn't that
somewhat similar to the gender quandary?

Regards,
Haukur

> Indeed, but couldnt this just be an example of a grammatical slip by
> the author or amanuensis? Or is that too simple an explanation? For
> someone whos native language is English and for whom the concept of
> grammatical gender is a complete novelty, such a slip would seem
> perfectly natural. But I am wondering whether inadvertant use of natural
> gender would be possible to an Icelander, for whom thinking in terms of
> grammatical gender would seem practically inherent. Or do you really
> have to think about it?
>
> Kveðja
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: norse_course@yahoogroups.com [mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Haukur Þorgeirsson
> Sent: Wednesday, 7 January 2009 2:38 AM
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
>
> Right, brought to the king. What I wanted to draw attention to is that
> 'sveinbarn' is a neuter noun but the adjective 'færðr' is in the
> masculine
> form so it would seem that in this case the natural gender has
> overridden
> the grammatical one.
>
> Kveðja,
> Haukur
>
>> OOooops - yes I checked Zoega and Cleasby and there is something like
>> being
>> brought to the King
>> in Zoega I believe it seems to suggest to me the little boy was given
> to
>> the King.
>> Perhaps given to serve the king at an early age - the other word færi
>> refers
>> to the condition of the road
>> i.e. the Way I believe Haukur you can blame my keeness to join in - I
>> have
>> missed my work with the Group and
>> hope to be back shortly
>> Kveðja
>> Patricia
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
>> Date: 06/01/2009 14:56:46
>> To: norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
>>
>> Sæl Patricia!
>>
>> Looks like you were in a bit of a rush there, check 'færðr' again.
>>
>> Kveðja,
>> Haukur
>>
>>
>>> Saell Haukur
>>> That looks interesting - may I join in
>>>
>>> "And a little after that Gautrek begot a child with his wife, and he
> was
>>> a
>>> boy-child
>>> and was the father of a king" -
>>> or does it mean that he was fathered by a king
>>>
>>> I wonder would they make a point of that - Mrs. Gautrek - would not
>>> have
>>> been
>>> unfaithful - ?? not even with a king
>>> I am just home from College and just noticed this I like to take part
>>> when
>>> I
>>> can
>>> Kveðja
>>> Patricia
>>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>> From: Haukur Þorgeirsson
>>> Date: 06/01/2009 14:27:03
>>> To: norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: RE: [norse_course] Lesson question
>>>
>>> Indeed. But here's a tricky little passage from Hrólfs saga
>>> Gautrekssonar,
>>> describing the birth of the eponymous hero:
>>>
>>> "Ok eigi miklu síðar getr Gautrekr barn við konu sinni. Þat var
>>> sveinbarn
>>> ok var færðr konungi."
>>>
>>> What do you make of that?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Haukur
>>>
>>>
>>>> bátr (boat) is, grammatically, a masculine noun. Any pronoun that
>>>> refers
>>>> to bátr must also be, grammatically, masculine, in all cases, and
> both
>>>> singular and plural. Hence, hann (nominative masculine singular) is
>>>> here
>>>> used to refer to it, ie hann may be translated into English as
>>>> either
>>>> he or it depending on whether the noun to which it refers, while
>>>> grammatically masculine, is in the real world masculine or
> genderless.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
>>>> [mailto:norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com]
>>>> On Behalf Of commander_dagda
>>>> Sent: Monday, 5 January 2009 3:12 PM
>>>> To: norse_course@ <mailto:norse_course%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: [norse_course] Lesson question
>>>>
>>>> I am working on the lessons from hi.is. In lesson 2, part of the
>>>> exercise is to translate:
>>>>
>>>> Óláfr á bát. Hann heitir Ormr.
>>>>
>>>> I am thinking that it is supposed to be:
>>>>
>>>> Olaf owns a boat. It is called Ormr.
>>>>
>>>> But the original uses the pronoun "hann," where I'm thinking it
>>>> should be "þat." Otherwise, wouldn't it be, "he is called Ormr?"
>>>>
>>>> Óláfr á bát. "þat" heitir Ormr.
>>>>
>>>> Nominative case: I you he she it
>>>> Accusative case: me you him her it
>>>>
>>>> Nominative case: ek þú hann hon þat
>>>> Accusative case: mik þik hann hana þat
>>>>
>>>> Thank you!
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
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>>>> 1/5/2009 9:44 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>>
>> Homepage: http://www.hi <http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/>
> is/~haukurth/norse/
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>> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
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