Re: Icelandic pronunciation and the mainland

Sæll Haukur!

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Haukur Þorgeirsson
<haukurth@...> wrote:

>
> Funny - this is the exact same thing I've been studying the last

few days!

Strange. It's happened before that we were studying the same things
at about the same times...I just picked up the old Nynorsk Bible and
started reading, discovered my neighbour is a Høynorsk-student (a
rare thing these days) - it's a new term for pure Landsmål, the old
Nynorsk, the conservative one with forms like eg tek (eg tar),
sol/soli (sól/sólin)etc. but jente/jenta (jenta/jentan), datives pl.
in -um/om, etc.. He largely understands Icelandic, without having
ever learned, studied or even heard it before. It's totally foreign
to him, but he had few problems 17.júní, when I took him out for a
wild time and he heard nothing but Icelandic for hours. So, getting
in the speaking-habit for a language is harder than understanding
it, I think. Likewise, even though I can cite Nynorsk forms, and do
understand it, I have a much harder time speaking it, especially
without injecting Icelandic forms or pronunciation. I'm working on
it, though. There are simply so many dialects (and languages) around
me at this time that I get confused, mix things, speak one way to X
another to Y, etc.. Classic Nynorsk pronunciation isn't based on the
Sognamål pronunciation (no ll>dl, no nn>dn, no já!, hann fór, etc.),
but discovering it sure makes me want to pronounce things this way!
But the main language here is Trøndsk/Trøndersk, and it really is
completely different in every way, so I'm not really in a position
to learn Sognamålet (except for an occasional, rare conversation).

> I've been trying to learn to write nynorsk, here is one attempt:
>
> http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1rbar%C3%B0slj%C3%B3%C3%B0

It looks good to me. I have a Sæmundar-translation from about a
hundred years ago. I'll find a fine, identical copy, and send it to
you as a gift, if you don't have one (on paper or online).

> Sogn is a nynorsk heartland and I'd like to learn the basics of

pronunciation there. I've been listening to "Walfar, ein Windir", a
musician from Sogn. The lyrics from the CD can be found on the Web
in some pseudo-phonetic writing, here's one example:

>
> Ho skjain å blainkte i maonaskjine.
> Å no saog han Londamyrstrådle so laog å sov,
> styggjele stort å hadde braitt seg midt ut yve myri.
>
> This sounds strikingly Icelandic.
>
> Hún skein og blikkaði í mánaskini.
> Og nú sá hann Lundamýrartröllið sem lá og svaf,
> styggilega stórt og hafði breitt sig mitt út yfir mýri.

Yes, I really miss the yve (NN yvir). Folk say 'over' here. I also
really want to learn this pronunciation correctly. I'm not sure if
I'll ever get the opportunity. There is an old man from Sogn in the
choir here. I talked to him once (he's from Dalsfjord, a few farms
from where Ingólfur Arnarson was born) ;) Actually, I'm thinking of
talking to him again. Perhaps he could refer me to someone younger
or more internet-friendly from Sogn who lives around here...perhaps
we could get him/her on Norse Course to explain pronunciation. I'm
thinking...folk from that area are very rare here (there are a lot
more Icelanders, actually), but I served dinner and wine at a fancy
restaurant beside a very-occasional co-worker from Sogn, a smart
young woman who conceals her dialect behind Bokmål at work. I got
her to speak more naturally one time on break, and she really had
the Icelandic-sound. She is one of the ones who told me that she had
consistently been called Icelandic. There are a few things in this
connection: 1) actual Icelandic-speakers generally (and they vary
widely) just learn the dominant Norwegian pronunciation/grammar
where they live (and learn it quickly) and blend in, going largely
unnoticed 2) many Norwegians are familiar with the basics of
Icelandic pronunciation (know what it sounds like, have visited
there/lived there/have relatives/ancestors there/friends therefrom/
neighbors/etc.) - the knowledge is widespread 3)the end result for
folk like my co-worker from Sogn: they are taken for Icelanders, as
they actually use the pronunciation so strongly associated with
Iceland when they speak, whereas Icelanders here largely don't. A
wierd situation I doubt their grandparents experienced...

> The change /ll/ > /dl/ makes one feel especially close to home.

Note that this change not only happened in Iceland, the Faroes and
in Sogn but also in Shetland: "delivra wus fro adlu idlu" or "Trettì
merkè vath ru godle". In the Orkneys too, I'm sure, though I don't
know if the scant sources
furnish an example.

I imagine so. I'm going to try to find someone, preferably language-
savy, from Sogn and get them on Norse-Course, if there isn't one
here already, or someelse doesn't beat me to it (probably, as they
are so rare here).

Kær kveðja,
-K

> Regards,
> Haukur
>
>
> > Ok, notice first that this language is called sognamålet.

According

> > to my source (who speaks it), it is pronounced sognamaúle (the t

is

> > here silent). The aú sound is identical to Icelandic á and occurs
> > where the chanracter aa/å is found. Notice also the genitive
> > plural 'sogna', over against Dano-Norwegian 'sogne'. Notice that

the

> > pronunciation is sogna, not songna (but written sogne), as is the
> > case everywhere else in Norway (and Denmark), with the exception

of

> > a few neighboring areas to Sogn. Furthermore, note that long o
> > (written ó in Icelandic) is no longer just a long version of

short

> > o, but a new diphthong (oú - the same sound as in Icelandic).

Notice

> > that a > á (aú) before nk/ng (as in Icelandic):laong taong baong
> > (Ice: löng töng banki). Notice u > ú (written o in Sogn) before
> > nk/ng: tong monk (Ice þung(ur) munkur) o here = ú. Notice ll >

dl:

> > kalla (pronounced kadla - as in Icelandic) - but this rule goes

even

> > further in Sogn than in Icelandic: 'kenna' is pronounced 'kenna'

in

> > Icelandic, 'kedna' in Sogn. Lastly, rn > dn is completed in Sogn,
> > but not yet in Icelandic (headed that way though): born korn
> > (Icelandic börn korn) are pronounced bodn kodn. Icelandic
> > pronunciation of börn is something like bördn (but bödn is
> > occuring). Notice also the comments in the link I provided about

the

> > dative, that it is still living in Voss, Sunnfjord, Sognfjøra,

and

> > in parts of Indre Sogn (all neighboring areas). Notice also nn >

dn

> > in many environments (se link). So, it is really not that

surprising

> > that folk thus speaking are often mistaken for being Icelanders

who

> > are speaking Norwegian. Lastly, notice also that this language

just

> > has stress on the first syllable (like Icelandic), and lacks the
> > quality called 'tonefall' in Norwegian. This quality produces the
> > unique sing-song effect in Norwegian dialects and is notoriously
> > difficult to learn. There are many local variations and folk

tend to

> > find them charming, but can't reproduce them. In Soganmålet,

there

> > is the staccato instead (just like in Icelandic). Hearing

Sognamålet

> > has given me a whole new ideas about ON pronunciation history.

Now,

> > as we can see that Sognamålet and Icelandic agree on the

consonants,

> > and on the vowels so far, lets see where they disagree. Ok, au

is au

> > (au not aú, like Ice á/Sogn å, but a plus u - an original ON

sound

> > preserved in Sogn, but not in Icelandic, which says ey here).

This

> > one is tricky. aa/á and au are very diffent sounds in Sogn, but

the

> > first is = Ice. á, while au is an archaic survival of the

original

> > ON sound in this instance, which Ice. once had (after hearing it

and

> > comparing it to Ice. au (=ey), I can almost hear how the change

went

> > into effect, as they are quite close in a way, especially after

loss

> > of original ey in Icelandic (>ei, but written ey). So,

essentially,

> > there is one more diphthong in Sogn (both Ice. and Sogn have more
> > than ON, which had only 3, but both also write only the 3 old

ones

> > as real diphthongs). ei is ei. _but_ (please note): in Icelandic

not

> > only is ey ei, but y is i and ý is í. Big changes? Well, some

would

> > call Icelandic pronunciation totally isolated and unlike ON. Not

so

> > fast. Many Norwegian dialect pronounce ey as ei, y as i and ý as

í,

> > including parts of Sogn, parts of Nordmøre, etc.etc., even

though it

> > is not a majority pronunciation. Thus, there is really _nothing_
> > isolated about Icelandic prounuciation with the possible

exception

> > of au=ey (I am uncertain about this one, but will ask about it).

So,

> > one should note that the pronunciation preserved by the

descendants

> > of the last ON speakers in Norway agrees with Icelandic to a

degree

> > that is shocking, in near total contradiction on a very large

number

> > of point with the entirety of modern mainland Scandinavia. It

should

> > be obvious that West Norse was heading a certain way by the time

of

> > black death, and that the pronunciations that survived the black
> > death (when most folk died, causing radical changes in society

and

> > language) in Iceland, Norway, and Faroes were extremely similar,

and

> > that not much separates them even today.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>