--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
>
> In the glossary to his edition of Skáldskaparmál, Anthony Faulkes
lists it as "Óðre(y)rir ... perhaps for Óðrørir or Óð(h)rrir." He
writes that the most usual spelling in the manuscripts is Óðrerir,
"occuring only once with y" (Óðreyrir). He continues, "in Hávamál
107, Óðrerir apparently refers to the contents of the pot, which
accords better with the etymology, though in Hávamál 140 it refers to
the pot." Here are the verses with Thorpe's translation, as
presented here [
Codex Regius shows: rerir at 107 & reri at 140 (later forms)
Copies of Snorra Edda (R ): reris R (Vellekla), reris (hooked e) W,
roeris U, røris T; and in in 1:250: reyrir R, rerir TU, roerir W; in
218: reris R, røris T, etc..
http://www.normanniireiks.org/guilds_lore/lore/poetic/havamal.htm ]:
>
> 107...því at Óðrerir for Oðrærir.
> er nú upp kominn is now come up
> á alda vé jarðar. to men's earthly dwellings.
alda vé (sanctuary of men) - an interesting aside here is that in
Buddhism, in origin an Aryan/Indo-Euro religion and using the IE
language Pâli (Buddha's mother tongue) as its sacred language, the
word for a monestary/temple is Vihara. ON vé is from PN *wîha, pl.
*wîhu, related to ON vígia 'to hallow'. In some runic inscriptions
the Norse god Þórr is asked to 'hallow' the stone/grave-mound/etc.
(several versions appear); also, in a Norse healing-prayer, Þórr is
asked to 'hallow' a þurs, which effect is believed to expell the
þurs and rid the man of the disease: far þú nú : fundinn est : þórr
vígi þik : þursa dróttinn. I wonder, is there a PIE-link between vé
and vihara? Another PIE wonder of mine: is Indic dharma, used about
religion, related to the ON verb þyrma, etc.?
> Last line appears variously as: á alda vés iarðar; til alda vés
jarðar; á alda vés iarðar; á alda vé jaðars. If these verses are
based on the same story of the theft of the mead that Snorri tells,
then I guess the most obvious way of understanding Óðrerir would as a
name for the mead here rather than the container. And the mention of
men might imply that the reference is to the mead of poetry, as a
metaphor for poetry itself -- unless of course the cauldron could be
used metaphorically too...
>
> 140...ok ek drykk of gat and a draught obtained
> ins dýra mjaðar of the precious mead,
> ausinn Óðreri. drawn from Oðrærir.
>
> Do these lines definitely suggest that Óðrerir is the vessel?
Rudolf Simek in his "Dictionary of Northern Mythology," translated
by Angela Hall, interprets the name as "approximately: 'the one that
stimulates to ecstasy'" -- i.e. the mead of poetry. According to
Simek, Snorri's interpretation as the cauldron in which the dwarfs
caught Kvasir's mblood was based on "an obscure passage in Hávamál
140, but Hávamál 107 and a number of kennings in skaldic poetry
prove quite clearly that Óðrrir originally meant the name of the
mead itself. [...] The name óðrrir is nicely appropriate to the
mead so that an improved reading
in Óhrrir, rejuvenating potion, is unnecessary."
> Presumably the first element of this alternative suggestion is the
same in origin as Old Norse ung- "young", except with the fricative
unvoiced due to root-stress in Pre-Germanic, Pgm. /u:nx/ > Proto-
Norse /u:h/ (with nasalised vowel) > ON ó-. The 'h' in this
hypothetical alternate version would remain, since it wouldn't be
deleted as part of a cluster according to the rule Konrad
mentioned. But since this form is (as far as I know) unattested and
the attested forms actually make more sense in terms of the myth, at
least as we know it, Simek has a point about it being unnessarary!
> Regarding the various spellings, could a third factor be at work
here -- besides those you mentioned, Konrad -- namely weakened
stress in the root of the second part of the compound, especially as
with the loss of the 'h' the original meaning might have become less
obvious (at least in Iceland where the 'h' was preserved before
initial 'r'; in other parts of Scandinavia, including Norway it was
lost). Since the symbol '' often used normalised authography
stands for long 'ø', could reduced stress have led to a shortening
of the vowel? Short 'ø' in all positions would sometimes undergo a
change to 'e' (e.g. kømr > kemr). Or perhaps shortening due to
reduced stress occured a bit later, after '' (=long 'ø') had merged
with 'æ' (=long open 'e'). But given the irregularities in the way
scribes represented these sounds, maybe this idea isn't necessary to
explain the forms that appear.
Yes, I think that weakened stress could be a factor, as usual in
Germanic, as the stress is initial. As you know, spelling is quite
erratic in old manuscripts. As most folk are interested in reading
Snorri Sturluson, relating as it does to Norse religion/mythology
(though not his formal purpose), the standardized model of ON tends
to approximate his early 13th century language. In general, and for
most students, this works fine. However, for those linguistically
inclined, the earlier spelling system used in the 1st grammatical
treatise is preferable, as it highlights the true relationships
between the ON vowels, using the same characters for short and long
vowels, differing only by accents for lengthening. However, while
this system might be ideal for ON scholars, it not necessarily ideal
for Snorri, as in his time there was likely no distinction between e
and hooked-e (short of long hooked-e = æ), and no longer any long
version of hooked-o, imbalancing the grammarian's vowel-system, in
which all of the nine vowels he mentions occur long and short.
> Now, responding to the Pronunciation Challenge (and bearing in mind
that I don't really have any special knowledge of these matters
beyond what you can read in the basic textbooks), Óðhrrir would
have the main stress on the first syllable and a secondary stress on
the next, similar to an English compound such as "mind-stirrer."
The vowel of the first syllable 'Óð' would probably have been as
Eysteinn explained for Modern Icelandic (like English 'oath') except
without the off-glide [u] at the end, i.e. just a long close-mid
back vowel [o:], like German 'Boot', or the vowel of 'oath' in some
varieties of northern British English. '' (long 'ø') is usually
thought to have been pronounced like the umlauted vowel in
German 'Böse'. But some time (starting in the mid 13th century
according to Stefán Karlsson) this vowel lost its lip-rounding in
Icelandic and merged with 'æ' (long open 'e'), like the vowel in
English 'rare'. Later still (I'm not sure when), this sound
developed into the diphthong Eysteinn describes which is its value
in Modern Icelandic.
I an not able to write 6 characters:
hooked-o,
long hooked-o
hooked-e,
long hooked-e,
long ø
hooked ø (so-called ø2)
Any idea about how to get these characters? Strange that they should
not be so easily available, as they are necessary in any academic
treatment of ON. I have done some research on Modern Icelandic
pronunciation and its relationship to the mainland, which I will
mention something about in a separate post.
> I think there's an image on at least one of the runestones which
might be interpreted as three stylised horns plaited together
(type "triple horn" and "odin" into Google Images). Which stone is
that?
Danish. I have seen a stone with this inter-locking horns symbol (3)
and it is in Denmark. It is one of a group of 10th century heathen
memorial stones (the Gørlev-group? - I can't recall). I'm not sure
what it's relationship to Óðinn would be, exactly, but it does occur
as a religious symbol on stones, along with Thor's hammer, swastika,
sun-wheel/cross, etc.. If I recall correctly, the Goths also used
the swastika, based on decorations on Gothic archeaological finds,
but I read this a long time ago and cannot recall the reference. By
far the most typical symbol on viking-age stones, however, is the
simple t-shaped Thor's hammer. Many amulets of it have also been
found, which suggests that it was probably the most typical symbol
of faith for the Norse, at least during the viking age, but other
symbols do occur. Besides the ones mentioned above, a triple, inter-
locking triangle figure also occurs on stones, paralleling the horn-
symbol being discussed. I do not know what the Norse actually called
these symbols (the 3-triangle, the 3-horn, the swastika, sun-wheel,
etc.), only being aware of the name of Thor's hammer (miollnir <
*mellunijaz w/ Sievers, Go. *milluneis), but would be interested to
know if anyone has any references about this. I wonder, does any
Gmc. language preserve names for any of these symbols?
Regards,
Konrad
> Llama Nom
>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Heill Victor.
> >
> > Eysteinn is right about the word in question. It is a rare word,
and
> > extant manuscripts do not seem to agree on how it should be
written.
> > It is a compound of two parts, the first part (óð- < *wôd-)
likely
> > related to inspiration (needed to compose poetry), and the
second
> > related to ON hroera/hrøra (<*hrôzian), MIce hræra, a weak verb
> > meaning to stir. The -ir suffix(*-jaz)in hroerir/hrørir is an
agent-
> > suffix, so the likely meaning is 'inspiration/poetry-stirir'.
The
> > -er in ME words like 'stirer' is also an agent-suffix, having
the
> > same origin in Germanic, which hopefully helps to explain what
it
> > tends to imply in ON. The name Óðinn is likely related to the óð-
in
> > this rare word, and it is thought, but not known for certain,
that
> > it was originally a u-stem (Early Runic N. *wôduz A. *wôdu D.
*wôdiu
> > G. *wôdôz), but the extant instances and cases of ON óðr give
> > conflicting evidence about its original declension. The Early
Runic
> > personal name Wôdurîdaz is attested in runic from about 400AD
(its
> > ON form would be Óðríðr), which would seem to support the idea
that
> > ON óðr was originally a u-stem. From the verb *hrôzian are
derived,
> > besides ON hroera/hrøra, Old English hrêran, Old Saxon hrôrian,
Old
> > High German hruoren, New High German ruhren (ulmauted u), all
with
> > the same range of meanings. Likely also related, by ablaut, is
the
> > Early Runic nom.sg.masc. a-stem hrazaz, a personal name or
nickname.
> > So how should this word be written in ON? It depends on the era
of
> > the language chosen, and the major issue here is the -h-. Take a
> > look at the exhaustive list of options given below by Eysteinn.
The
> > variants with -ey- are likely due to either a) spelling
variations
> > for the sound long ø (also written oe) or b) mutation variations
of
> > original ô before z (*hrôzian) (z/R caused a variety of
mutations in
> > ON when it turned into r in West Norse, which can sometimes be
seen
> > in alternate forms of words with original z/R, for example:
ýr/ór
> > 'out of', ørlög, Erlandr (personal name),
orrosta/orrusta/orresta
> > 'battle', etc.etc.. The most conservative form, however, would
be ON
> > hroerir/hrørir (accent the ø = oe), because it shows only i-
mutation
> > of a preceeding ó by a following -i/j-. Given that this form
occurs,
> > I would stick with it. Lastly, the major issue: -h-. Gulp. By
about
> > 1200AD, this -h- would be gone due to simplification of
consonant
> > clusters of three or more consonants, by which rule the middle
one
> > has to go (Þórfríðr attested 1000AD in West Norse runes >
Þórríðr
> > Attested about 1120AD in a copy of Ari Fróði > MIce usually
Þuríðr).
> > However, the oldest manuscripts (like the 2 Homily Books, etc.),
_do
> > not show simplification of consonant clusters at all in
compounds_,
> > and show much less of it in non-compounds as well - but the
complex
> > rules on these non-compounds are irrelevant here, as this word
is a
> > compound. Thus, about 1200AD and later: óðroerir/óðrø'ir, but
about
> > 1100AD and earlier: óðhroerir/óðhrø'rir - because the
simplification
> > of consonant clusters of three or more consecutive consonants in
> > compound words is thought to have begun during the 12th century,
> > middle-later half. Hope this helps ;)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Konrad
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Eysteinn Bjornsson"
> > <eysteinn@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Victor Hansen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I believe that the word Odhroerir is the old Norse for the
> > symbol of the triple horn of Odin (is it referred to by any
other
> > names and how would those be pronounced?). Someone correct me if
I
> > am off track with this word but I'd be very interested to know
the
> > proper pronounciation of it (or as close as possible), if
someone
> > could give me a bit of help on this.
> > > .
> > > .
> > > .
> > >
> > > We don't even know what the correct form ought to be, so we
don't
> > know for certain what the word means. The pronunciation
> > would vary depending on which form you would prefer. Some forms
> > possible are:
> > >
> > > Óðrerir
> > > Óðreyrir
> > > Óðrørir
> > > Óðroerir
> > > Óðhroerir
> > >
> > > In Skáldskaparmál, it is the name of one of three cauldrons
> > > in which the dwarfs Fjalarr and Galarr caught the blood of
Kvasir.
> > > However, as used in Hávamál, Ó. appears to be the name of the
> > > actual liquid therein, i.e. the poetic mead itself. I have
never
> > > heard of "the triple horn of Óðinn" and doubt it is mentioned
> > > anywhere in Icelandic sources. A dubious school of mythological
> > > interpretation even equates Ó. with Mímisbrunnur (Mímir's
well).
> > >
> > > Others here (llamanom, this is you) are better at "authentic"
> > > Old Norse pronounciation or approximations thereof ... I'm just
> > > a modern Icelander, and know little of such learned matters ...
> > >
> > > In modern Icelandic the pronounciation would be approximately:
> > >
> > > Óð - as "oath", but with the "th" of "father", not that
of "thing".
> > > Hræ - say "rye" and then add an "h" in front = "hrye".
> > > Rir - "rir" with "i" as in bin.
> > >
> > > And of course all three r's need to be trilled in the Icelandic
> > > manner.
> > >
> > > I guess the Icelanders of, say, the 11th century, would have
> > > pronounced quite similarly, except that the value of "hræ"
> > > would have been closer to "hruh", rather than "hrye".
> > >
> > > But as they always say, you really have to hear it in order
> > > to know how to do it.
> > >
> > > Not much help, I'm afraid.
> > >
> > > Eysteinn
> > >
> >
>