From: llama_nom
Message: 7019
Date: 2006-09-07
--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you very much, again. Now that I know that "Harvaða" could
actually be "Harfaða" < Pre-Proto-Germanic ** /karpatha/, it is clear
it can be connected with the Latin word "Carpates", pointing to PIE
*karpat(h)es.
>
> Regards,
>
> Petr
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: llama_nom <600cell@...>
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 7 September, 2006 10:23:08 AM
> Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hervarar saga
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@> wrote:
> >
>
> > Well, thank you for the information. I must say I know that the name
> is believed to refer to the Carpathians, but as Ptolemy used the name
> "Carpates", the Old Norse and Latin words are incompatible. Or do I
> misunderstand the Grimm's Law? Why, the Old Norse /v/ must be from PG
> *w < PIE *w, but latin /p/ cannot be derived from PIE *w. That's why
> I'm asking, in fact.
>
> I think that by the mid 13th century, at least, it's generally
> believed that there was no longer any difference in pronunciation
> between Icelandic 'v' and 'f' except at the beginning of a word (see
> e.g. Gordon: An Introduction to Old Norse, paragraph 16). This is
> shown by the fact that the letters are used interchangeably in
> medieval manuscripts without regard to etymology. For example 'ævi'
> "life; age, time" may also be spelt 'æfi' (cf. Gothic 'aiws' "age");
> conversely, 'hafa' "to have" may also be spelt 'hava' or 'haua' (cf.
> Gothic 'haban' "to have"). So 'Harvaða' could just as well stand for
> earlier *Harfaða. In fact, a medial 'f' or 'v' in an Icelandic word,
> as spelt at this time, could each in theory represent either
> Proto-Germanic *f or *b or *w. Compare 'Tyrfingr', thought to be
> related to the name of the Gothic people called 'Tervingi' by Latin
> writers; although an alternative explanation relates the sword name to
> the word 'torf' "turf, sod of earth", perhaps with referrence to its
> being buried (Turville-Petre, ed.: Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks, note
> 56/21). The other idea, that Tyrfingr is related to 'tjörr' "sword",
> "spear" would also involve 'f' standing for earlier *w.
>
> > Could the name be analysed internally? For example "stone-way",
> /har-/ being from PIE *kar "stone" and "vaða" meaning "way, passage" ???
>
> I don't know enough to judge the likelihood of such an etymology.
> Sorry I can't be more help there.
>
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: llama_nom <600cell@>
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 4 September, 2006 11:17:09 PM
> > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hervarar saga
> >
> >
> > Hello Petr,
> >
> > The name is generally believed to refer to the Carpathian Mountains.
> > 'Harvaða' is thought to derive from a form of the name inherited from
> > Proto-Germanic and affected by the Proto-Germanic sound change known
> > as Grimm's Law whereby voiceless stops became fricatives. 'fjöllum'
> > is the dative plural of 'fjall' which means "mountain".
> >
> > LN
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > could somebody possibly tell me what exactly "Harvaða fjöllum "
> > means and which geographical feature it describes?
> > >
> > > Thank you very much in advance!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Petr
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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