Re: Hervarar saga

Hi Petr,

Something else which I just thought of, which might point to Germanic
/f/ rather than /w/ in the ancestor of the Old Norse name, is the fact
that Proto-Norse *w or *u would normally cause a mutation of a
preceding *a. Thus, Old Norse 'ör' "arrow", nominative & accusative
plural 'örvar' (cf. the English word and the Gothic nom.acc. pl.
'arhwaznos'); ON söngr < Proto-Germanic *sangwaz. But whether a name
would be affected by this sound change would I suppose depend on when
the name reached Iceland, for example whether the poem was preserved
in oral tradition that came with the early Norwegian settlers, or
arrived later having been borrowed from some other Germanic language
after the mutation had ceased to be effective.

LN

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you very much, again. Now that I know that "Harvaða" could
actually be "Harfaða" < Pre-Proto-Germanic ** /karpatha/, it is clear
it can be connected with the Latin word "Carpates", pointing to PIE
*karpat(h)es.
>
> Regards,
>
> Petr
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: llama_nom <600cell@...>
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 7 September, 2006 10:23:08 AM
> Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hervarar saga
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@> wrote:
> >
>
> > Well, thank you for the information. I must say I know that the name
> is believed to refer to the Carpathians, but as Ptolemy used the name
> "Carpates", the Old Norse and Latin words are incompatible. Or do I
> misunderstand the Grimm's Law? Why, the Old Norse /v/ must be from PG
> *w < PIE *w, but latin /p/ cannot be derived from PIE *w. That's why
> I'm asking, in fact.
>
> I think that by the mid 13th century, at least, it's generally
> believed that there was no longer any difference in pronunciation
> between Icelandic 'v' and 'f' except at the beginning of a word (see
> e.g. Gordon: An Introduction to Old Norse, paragraph 16). This is
> shown by the fact that the letters are used interchangeably in
> medieval manuscripts without regard to etymology. For example 'ævi'
> "life; age, time" may also be spelt 'æfi' (cf. Gothic 'aiws' "age");
> conversely, 'hafa' "to have" may also be spelt 'hava' or 'haua' (cf.
> Gothic 'haban' "to have"). So 'Harvaða' could just as well stand for
> earlier *Harfaða. In fact, a medial 'f' or 'v' in an Icelandic word,
> as spelt at this time, could each in theory represent either
> Proto-Germanic *f or *b or *w. Compare 'Tyrfingr', thought to be
> related to the name of the Gothic people called 'Tervingi' by Latin
> writers; although an alternative explanation relates the sword name to
> the word 'torf' "turf, sod of earth", perhaps with referrence to its
> being buried (Turville-Petre, ed.: Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks, note
> 56/21). The other idea, that Tyrfingr is related to 'tjörr' "sword",
> "spear" would also involve 'f' standing for earlier *w.
>
> > Could the name be analysed internally? For example "stone-way",
> /har-/ being from PIE *kar "stone" and "vaða" meaning "way, passage" ???
>
> I don't know enough to judge the likelihood of such an etymology.
> Sorry I can't be more help there.
>
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: llama_nom <600cell@>
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 4 September, 2006 11:17:09 PM
> > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hervarar saga
> >
> >
> > Hello Petr,
> >
> > The name is generally believed to refer to the Carpathian Mountains.
> > 'Harvaða' is thought to derive from a form of the name inherited from
> > Proto-Germanic and affected by the Proto-Germanic sound change known
> > as Grimm's Law whereby voiceless stops became fricatives. 'fjöllum'
> > is the dative plural of 'fjall' which means "mountain".
> >
> > LN
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > could somebody possibly tell me what exactly "Harvaða fjöllum "
> > means and which geographical feature it describes?
> > >
> > > Thank you very much in advance!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Petr
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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