----- Original Message -----

From: AThompson

To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 9:55 AM

Subject: RE: [norse_course] I'm all in favour of cheating!

LN, Patricia

Don't misunderstand me. I agree with everything LN says and use all LN's suggested methods at various times, both for learning the language and for preparing translations. The specific approaches to studying and translating which I suggested were not meant as single approaches for all one's language study activities. They were only intended as an approach for our current Hrafnkel translation "class" in the Norse Course group. And I didn't necessarily mean for people to try to translate the whole passage on their own before referring to the translation - it could just as easily be sentence by sentence. My suggestion was simply to use this particular "class" for making a genuine attempt at recognising the grammatical structure of the sentences on your own first - for example training yourself to recognise noun cases and verb conjugations - rather than having the solution simply presented to you by referring to another translation first. Similarly, I was suggesting that you present your translations to this group, as a minimum, in a way that demonstrates the extent to which you have understood the grammar. I am not suggesting that you should not also attempt a literary translation as well. But I am not able to assess, and therefore comment on, your exact understanding of the grammar of a particular sentence if, for example, your translation is in the past tense when the original was in the present. I cannot know from this whether you have done this for stylistic reasons or because you didn't recognise that the verb in the original text was in the present tense. The reason my translations in this "class" are so literal is purely to indicate, as best I can, the grammar of the original.

I think we´ve had this discussion before:)

And don't give up.

Kveðja
Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: norse_course@yahoogroups.com [mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of llama_nom
Sent: Monday, 13 March 2006 1:17 AM
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [norse_course] I'm all in favour of cheating!


It's more efficient.  If there's something I don't understand and I
have a translation handy, I think it's good to look it up as quickly
as possible.  Just like looking a word up in a dictionary or
glossary.  That way, you're more likely to remember the meaning,
when you think back to the occasion, rather than just remembering
your own bafflement and puzzled guesses.  In fact, I reckon it's a
good excercise to read a text with a translation to hand for
constant comparison.  It allows you to read more and faster, and
thus get more experience of the language itself, as opposed to
experience of head-scratching and flicking through dictionaries. 
Admittedly, having a niggly obsessive mind, as I suspect some of you
lot do too, I always end up checking every other word in
dictionaries and other texts where possible anyway--which defeats
the principle a bit (oh well).  I suppose different methods work for
different people, and if you need a stronger motivation to niggle
over the little details, I guess it might be better to lock away the
translations while working on a passage.  But if you tend to be
overly obsessive, it's good to have a philosophy to counter that, or
at least water it down a bit.

But then I do also like the challenge of tackling something that I
haven't got a translation for.  And, of course, if I still can't
make sense of the grammar after seeing it in a translation, maybe
because it's an idiomatic phrase that's been translated loosely,
then that requires further investigation.  Some things I just have
to make a note of in the sections of my notebook devoted to
mysteries!  To be dealt with, or asked about, later...  The
important thing is not to get disheatened or bogged down.  Further
reading often clarifies something, when you come across a similar
phrase in a different context.

It's nice, and helps to avoid Old Norse Burn-Out, to alternate
between various approaches, some more labour intensive than others,
maybe if I'm tired, just reading to get as much sense as possible
without worrying about everything; but when I'm more alert and
energetic, making a proper translation of something as best I can. 
And for the days when that gets too easy, you can always go and
squint at wormeaten parchments on Saganet [
http://saga.library.cornell.edu/ ].  They have some printed books
too though.

On literalness, I agree that it's important to understand first how
a sentence works grammatically in all its finer points.  But I also
think it's just as important to have a clear idea of how it might be
expressed in idiomatic English.  A perfectly literal translation--if
such a thing is possible--can sometimes be misleading, on its own,
or not very meaningful.  I don't want to suggest that Alan goes to
that extreme, and he also guards against that danger by adding
helpful notes, where the literal meaning doesn't quite convey the
sense in English.  My point is just that thinking of a good natural
way to put a sentence in English is as much a part of translation as
figuring out the grammatical relations of the words in the
original.  The aesthetics is something else again, but it interests
me too (after all, these are works of literature), and I don't think
that Patricia's comments about this third level of translation, the
artistic aspect of it, are at all off topic.

> To be sure I am finding that heavy going and now wonder if I have
bitten off a trifle more than I can chew, I was ordering a copy of
the Cleasby-Vigfusson Dictionary hoping that would help,

Tsk, chewing dictionaries is a very bad sign though.  Maybe as part
of a balenced diet, but still...  Mind you, you're at an advantage
now that the online edition is out of action again.





--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
<originalpatricia@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Alan, I fear my guesses are more "otherwise" than
educated hence my use of inverted commas in my original translation.
>
> I do not copy from an existing translation - smacks of cheating to
me, besides it would show up if I did that, my guesses are clearly
not good, the reason being that I am still struggling with actually
learning the language from the three (Barnes & Faulkes) Books that I
have.
>
> To be sure I am finding that heavy going and now wonder if I have
bitten off a trifle more than I can chew, I was ordering a copy of
the Cleasby-Vigfusson Dictionary hoping that would help, best cancel
that it strikes me as unnecessary expense now, and I can now see
that I have clearly had the wrong approach to this learning process
from the beginning. I can see that keeping the whole thing as
literal as possible would obviously be the best now, and I fully
appreciate your pointing that out.
>
> Understanding the grammar of a Language that is no longer spoken
is a difficulty, at least with my other languages I have the
opportunity of e.mailing - telephoning or dropping by at a Friends
house if I get stuck on my reading
>
> Thank you for this particular comment, I wonder if it would be
better to "take a break" and continue to study my books - for a
while anyway - for on a couple of points I have noticed where you
have underlined - I have made a "typo" and this has altered the
sense of the thing - so much for driving myself to complete a
translation when "dog" tired
>
> Advice from anyone who cares to offer it will be much appreciated,
I am fully aware of "driving" myself too much, and causing myself
and the group - embarrassment or whatever
>
> Kveðª¡
>
> Patricia
>
> Alan's comments were - 
>
> Comments below. What you include in your translation, 'educated'
or otherwise, is entirely up to you. This purpose of the activity is
to assist you in learning. It is not a test. If you´ve guessed a
single word or phrase or copied a whole sentence from an existing
translation without fully understanding the sentence makes
absolutely no difference to me; but, personally, I would see little
benefit to yourself from a learning perspective in doing so. If you
are using an existing translation to assist you, I would suggest not
using it until after you have tried to work out the whole text on
your own first, then refer to the translation to validate your own
translation and for guidance on the parts you couldn´t make sense
of, but only include in your submitted work what you have been able
to work out and make some sense of. I suggest you always keep your
submitted translation as literal as possible (even at the expense of
gracefulness of expression) because that way I can be more certain
as to whether you have understood the grammar.
>
> 
>
> Kve𪡊>
> Alan
>







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