Re: "Little Brother?"

As I say, I haven't read the book Eaters of the Dead, and I only
vaguely remember the film, but wasn't the phrase used by one of the
vikings for the Arabic traveller Ibn Fadlan? Can't remember if he
had a beard, but I think the way it happened was that he seemed less
than warrior-like to his Norse comrades at first, but later proves
himself defending the court of King Hrothgar, in their battles with
cannibalistic Norwegian cavemen, or something like that...

Incidentally, the film did have a little bit of people talking in
Icelandic near the beginning, but then the hero learns their
language by listening "very hard" for about thirty seconds one night
round the campfire, and after that it's all in English.

Llama Nom

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
<originalpatricia@...> wrote:

> I really like these interactions, may I ask please is it very

likely that the word "little" could be used with only gentle irony
about a great grownup and bearded warrior of a brother of whom you
are proud in your heart.

> How about the expression definitely ironic "oh you happy little

soul" said to a person who is being deliberately doleful - a party
pooper - in effect the more I read in these letters the more the
language seems to become alive

> Kveðja all
> Patricia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: llama_nom
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 1:51 PM
> Subject: [norse_course] Re: "Little Brother?"
>
>
>
>
> Hi Annika,
>
> > _the '(h)inn' would of course only be used if the brother had
> recently been mentioned in the same conversation or was in sight

> the time of the conversation...
>
> Does this rule about (h)inn apply to Modern Icelandic? And if

the

> brother was not in sight and had not been recently mentioned,

would

> the adjective still be weak? Here are some examples from Old
> Icelandic where I think the thing/person is being mentioned for

the

> first time in the conversation:
>
> 1) Gillingr skal hafa uxa minn inn góða
> "G. shall have my best ox"
> (Gautreks saga, ch. 2)
>
> 2) Upp rístu Þakkráðr,
> þræll minn in bezti.
> "Arise Th., my best thrall"
> (Völundarkviða, st. 39)
>
> 3) ok minn inn hvassi hjörr
> "and my sharp sword"
> (Fáfnismál, st. 6)
>
> 4) Skaltu nú drekka brullaup til hennar ok fara í skrúða minn

inn

> besta.
> You must/shall now marry her and go in my best raiment.
> (Sturlaugs saga starfsama, ch. 22)
>
> 5) bróðir þinn inn böðskái
> "your warlike brother"
>
> Admittedly in 3, though not mentioned, the sword has been felt.

> 1 and 4 I'm not sure if the item in in sight, but maybe.

Gilling is

> a poor man so perhaps he keeps his ox indoors. I don't know the
> context of 4, I'm afraid. In 5, the brother is probably NOT IN
> SIGHT, as he's just arrived and instructed the speaker to go

inside

> the hall to announce his arrival.
>
> Not strictly relevant, but the use of possessive + demonstrative

> also found in Old English:
>
> 6) broþer þin se selesta
> "your blessed brother"
> (Guþlac 1332-3)
>
> ...and weak adjectives with or without definite/demonstrative
> pronouns in Gothic:
>
> 7) þu is sunus meins sa liuba
> you are my own beloved son
> (Luke 3,22)--speaker = voice from heaven, who hasn't mentioned
> anything till now
>
> 8) sa sunus meins dauþs was jah gaqiunoda
> my son was dead but came to life
> (Luke 15,24)--speaker = father of the Prodigal Son, speaking in
> private to his jealous other son
>
> 9) Þu nu, barn mein waliso
> so you, my dear child
> (2Tim 2,1)
>
> In vocatives like 9, the weak/definite declension of the

adjective

> is a matter of convention, used even in writing a letter, as in

> or a Gospel, where the adressee is not in sight: batista
> Þaiaufeilu "most excellent Theophilus" (Luke 1,1). This is the

very

> beginning of the Gospel, so Th. hasn't been mentioned previously
> either. On the other hand, an early 5th c. inscription from

Norway

> has the vocative adjective declined strong, and without
> demonstrative/article:
>
> 10) Birg, Inguboro, swestar minu liubu meR Wage
> "Save/protect [me], Inguboro, my dear sister, me WagaR."
> (Opedal runestone)
>
> It has been speculated that this was a prayer addressed to the
> occupant of a nearby grave-mound (20m away, according to Arild
> Hauge's site). I don't know if that affects the grammar

though.

> The Opedal inscription conflicts with Gothic usage. Would this
> require a definite pronoun in Old Norse? Modern Icelandic?
>
>
>
> > Also I think it's likely that instead of using the word little
> they would maybe only use a diminuative, so you could get

something

> like bróð + le (the diminuative) + ur/ir, which with vocal
> subtraction would give an end result somthing like bróðlir,

which

> would mean little or small brother...
>
>
> Do you have any examples of this method of forming a

diminutive?

> Did it survive in Old Icelandic as a productive affix? The old
> diminutives -ill and -li were added to the end of the word and
> affect the declination, but I hadn't heard of this diminutive

infix

> in ON. I'm not sure that even -ill and -li were freely combined
> with roots in historical times.
>
> Where did the speaker come from in Eaters of the Dead? I

haven't

> read the book, but in the film (13th Warrior) I think they end

up in

> Norway don't they? But could it be an East Norse peculiarity?
> Maybe we should be looking for parallels on Swedish runestones.
> Lots of examples of bróþir, anyway, but are there any with an
> adjective?
>
> Llama Nom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Annika Larla Evensen

McKibbin

> <runadis@...> wrote:
> > _the '(h)inn' would of course only be used if the brother had
> recently been mentioned in the same conversation or was in sight

> the time of the conversation... Also I think it's likely that
> instead of using the word little they would maybe only use a
> diminuative, so you could get something like bróð + le (the
> diminuative) + ur/ir, which with vocal subtraction would give

> end result somthing like bróðlir, wich would mean little or

small

> brother...
> >
> > Runadis
> >
> > llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "absnt_mnd_prof"
> > <hilandfox@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Can anyone give me the old norse for this?
> >
> >
> > Google turns up a lot of Modern Icelandic examples of both:
> >
> > litli bróðir minn (1990)
> > bróðir minn litli (52)
> >
> > Also a few with: hinn litli bróðir minn. I don't know if that
> adds
> > the same kind of emphasis as English "that little brother of

mine".

> >
> > Perhaps the most likely way to say it in Old Norse would be:
> >
> > bróðir minn inn litli
> >
> > Llama Nom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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