Saell Llama Nom
 því at seems to sound like the Old English - there at - and that has connotations of because of - in it,  " sort of = he was struck, and there-at fled from his Lord 's presence sort of phrase.
Ann to my mind is concerned about someone "bravely" picking on him or calling him outside
I doubt if you will find" there at" in anything written later than Sir Walter Scott
Kveðja
Patricia
----- Original Message -----
From: llama_nom
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 2:41 PM
Subject: [norse_course] Re: "at því hugði...at" + "koma sér e-s"? + reflexive pronouns


>     "Fóru þeir þá út á skip, en at því hugði Ánn, hvar hann skyldi
>     þess koma sér, at öllum þætti sér mest mein at."


--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
<originalpatricia@......> wrote:
>   Saell Llama Nom
>   what can you make out of the possibility that he was looking for
a place of advantage, in case someone wanted to test him, by
starting on at him, or is that too remote, this is becoming
fascinating
>   Patricia


Could be, as far as I can see.  I'm just a bit puzzled by 'þess'. 
There is the idiom: 'því at' "because", which can appear together,
or it can be split up: 'því...at'.  The reason comes after the 'at',
and the result between 'því' and 'at'.  I think this is what's going
on here, but then there's the verb 'hyggja at' "think/wonder about",
so that might complicate the issue.

The reflexive pronouns like 'sér' are usually said to refer only to
the subject of the sentence, but I gather that in some circumstances
they might also refer to the object, for example in speech.  With
þykkja, I believe they can be used for the "logical subject", that
is to say the person who is doing the thinking, even though the
subject is expressed with the dative case, rather than the
nominative.  A proverbial example from Modern Icelandic:

hverjum þykir sinn fugl fagur
"to each seems their bird fair"
"everyone thinks their own bird is pretty"

This seems to create an ambiguity in the quote from An's Saga, in
that 'sér', unless I'm mistaken (and maybe I am...), might refer to
An or to the other people on the ship who dislike him.  My guess
would be the latter, but I don't really know.

Llama Nom




>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: llama_nom
>     To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:26 PM
>     Subject: [norse_course] Re: "at því hugði...at" + "koma sér e-
s"? + reflexive pronouns
>
>
>
>
>     Thanks for your suggestions, Patricia.  I suspect you're
right, but
>     it's my new resolution to stop thinking anything definitely,
because
>     I've been wrong so often in the past, so I'll keep puzzling at
this
>     till I'm completely sure how these two clauses connect "he
>     wondered...because" or "he wondered about...so that", and what
this
>     genitive is doing.
>
>     >     "Fóru þeir þá út á skip, en at því hugði Ánn, hvar hann
skyldi
>     þess koma sér, at öllum þætti sér mest mein at."
>
>     Also, some of these saga heroes have a habit of looking for
trouble
>     (as you may have noticed...), so that was what made me wonder
if
>     whether he was experiencing the consequences of his
>     reputation/attitude, or aiming to make new enemies.  Skulu,
besides
>     obligation, can also indicate futurity I think, but here yes
it does
>     look like "where he should" or "where he ought to" or
maybe "where
>     he would have to", depending on what the rest of it means.
>
>     Llama Nom
>
>
>
>     --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
>     <originalpatricia@...> wrote:
>     >   Saell LN
>     >   I was puzzled over þess koma sér, but I think he is
definitely
>     wondering where to sit,
>     >   Zoëga is very specific with the hvar = where - in what
place
>     (says so) and the skyldi is from
>     >   skulu - ought - in the sense to be obliged ought or
should -
>     could fit.
>     >   and he has been in trouble before you say so I'm sure he
is
>     trying to place himself conveniently out of trouble in case he
gets
>     thrown over board (??perhaps??)
>     >   The skyldi/skulu bit I dragged out of  Gordon.
>     >   Hope this helps
>     >   Kveðja
>     >   Patricia
>     >     ----- Original Message -----
>     >     From: llama_nom
>     >     To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>     >     Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:49 PM
>     >     Subject: [norse_course] "at því hugði...at" + "koma sér
e-s"?
>     + reflexive pronouns
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     Could anyone clarify this sentence for me:
>     >
>     >     "Fóru þeir þá út á skip, en at því hugði Ánn, hvar hann
skyldi
>     þess
>     >     koma sér, at öllum þætti sér mest mein at."
>     >
>     >     It's from Áns saga bogsveigis.  The context is that Án,
a
>     typically
>     >     troublsome young man, and bourgeoning saga hero, has
just
>     convinced
>     >     his more upstanding but conventional elder brother to
let him
>     come
>     >     along to visit the king.
>     >
>     >     "Then they went out onto the ship," is easy
enough, "and/but
>     An
>     >     wondered..."
>     >
>     >     But what exactly is "hvar hann skyldi þess koma sér"? 
At a
>     guess,
>     >     could it be that he "wondered where to put himself" on
the
>     ship? 
>     >     What does the genitive 'þess' relate to?
>     >
>     >     Does the first 'at' go with 'hugði'--"he wondered [about
the
>     >     following thing]"--or is 'at því...at' equivalent
>     to 'því...at' "for
>     >     this reason...because"?
>     >
>     >     In other words, is An (a) wondering where he should put
>     himself,
>     >     given that everyone thinks he's trouble?  Or (b) is he
>     wondering
>     >     where to go "so as to / in order to" make everyone think
the
>     worst
>     >     of him?
>     >
>     >     Or is he wondering why they think this about him, what
he's
>     done to
>     >     get this reaction?  I'm a bit confused...
>     >
>     >     Can the second 'sér' in theory refer to either An or the
>     sailors?
>     >
>     >     Llama Nom
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
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