The royal "we" in Völundarkviða

In fact,

Niðuðr starts off talking about "our gold" and "our land", although
he also says "far, I think, is our land". The queen then addresses
him in the plural when she advises him to cut Völund's sinews. When
Völundr contemplates his plight, he talks of himself in the singular.

But, when things go wrong for Niðuðr, and the queen finds him alone
and insomniac in the night, she addresses him in the singular. From
this point on, he only uses singular pronouns of himself. Völundr,
on the other hand, his vengeance accomplished, fluctuates (as well
he might), sometimes addressing the king with a suitably
haughty "we" as he anounces his terms:

...at þú kveljat
kván Völundar
né brúði minni
at bana verðir,
þótt vér kván eigim,
þá er þér kunnið,
eða jóð eigim
innan hallar.

[swear to me] that you won't kill Volund's wife, nor become my
bride's slayer, even if we have a wife whom you know, or we have a
child inside [your] hall.

But then he reverts to "I" as he tells the kings what he's done. He
mainly addresses Niðuðr in the singular--I think "er þér kunnið" is
the only time he uses a plural form for Niðuðr. And that's all I
know for now...

Llama Nom

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
wrote:

>
>
> A possible early example. In Völundarkviða the queen seems to
> address Níðuðr first in the plural:
>
> sníðið ér hann sina magni
> ok setið ér hann síðan í sævar stöð
>
> (unless she means "you and your men"?), but later--in more

worrying

> times--in the singular: "vakir þú, Níðuðr...?"
>
> Llama Nom
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
> <radiorabia@...> wrote:
> > I remember reading the saga of Håkon Håkonsson last year. It

said

> in the
> > preface that it was the first royal saga where the king is
> adressed in the
> > plural. In Snorris sagas, the kings are singular.
> >
> >
> >
> > Terje
> >
> > >From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
> > >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: [norse_course] Re: engu játum vér öðru en þessu er vér
> höfum áðr
> > >ætlat
> > >Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:11:17 -0000
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear Fernando,
> > >
> > >Interesting. Do the continental king's mirrors share this
> > >explanation? I wonder if the reason given in Konungs skuggsiá
> could
> > >be a rationalisation of a common linguistic tendency, found all
> over
> > >the world. In a lot of languages the issue of the 2nd person
> plural
> > >becomes fraught. It often becomes embarrassing and impolite to
> use
> > >the normal direct mode of address, perhaps because it carries
> > >unwanted associations of commands and insults: "Oi you!" (and
> > >worse!), and different languages develop various perephrastic
> > >strategies.
> > >
> > >On the other hand, the present British monarchs have the
> formula "My
> > >government and I". And one's pronouncements certainly seem to
> carry
> > >more weight if they are presented in the plural, as if to say

that

> > >it's impossible to argue with this, because it's the universally
> > >held opinion. Another idea someone suggested to me was that the
> > >plural might imply "me and God", since so many documents and
> > >pronouncements were made in Christian times "in the name of

God".

> > >Of course, these are modern *speculations*...
> > >
> > >I just had a casual look in Beowulf, and as far as I can see
> Hroþgar
> > >is always modestly singular, both in his own speeches, and when
> > >Beowulf addresses him. The late 7th century West Saxon laws
> > >begin "Ic Ine..." The English king Ælfred sometimes uses 3rd
> person
> > >of himself, but reverts to 1st singular, rather than plural.

The

> > >Gothic Bible follows the Greek in making Herod and Pilot

singular.

> > >What was normal in Latin? Julius Caesar refers to himself in

the

> > >3rd person, but what did the Roman Emperors do?
> > >
> > >I see in Konungs skuggsiá the king actually uses 1st sg.,

although

> > >his son addresses him in the plural. Do you know of any

relevant

> > >runic inscriptions?
> > >
> > >Llama Nom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Guerrero"
> > ><cualfer@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Fernando Guerrero
> > > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:34 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: engu játum vér öðru en

þessu

> er
> > >vér höfum áðr ætlat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Llama,
> > > >
> > > > Concerning the fact that kings are usually referred to in

the

> > >plural of the frirst person; there are several references to it
> > >which you may find interesting.There is a very good explanation
> for
> > >the fact in Konungsskugja (The King's Miror) an ON version of

the

> > >continental king's mirrors. Even though the source is late, it

> > >just as late as any of the sagas. In there it is explained that
> > >since the king represents the sciety as a whole, therefore he

must

> > >be addressed in the plural, as he himself is not a singe

person,

> but
> > >an institution representing himself andall his people.
> > > > I don'tknow if tis was also applied to the pre-Christian
> kings,
> > >but, since all the saga material is Chrstian, it would be worth
> > >doing some research in the few older sources that we have in

order

> > >to find out if this was an imporo or also a traditional way of
> > >addressing the kings and petty kings before AD 1000.
> > > > Very good point, and maybe worth researching.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fernando Guerrero
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fernando Guerrero
> > > > Centre for Medieval Studies
> > > > University of York
> > > > York
> > > > YO1 7EP
> > > > Northern Yorkshire
> > > > Uk
> > >
> > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: llama_nom
> > > > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:33 PM
> > > > > Subject: [norse_course] engu játum vér öðru en

þessu

> er
> > >vér
> > > > höfum áðr ætlat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if anyone can tell me why Auðun "goes
> plural"
> > >here?
> > > > In Old
> > > > > Norse, as in English, I think it's normal for a

king

> to
> > >talk
> > > > of
> > > > > himself as "we", and Auðun very wisely addresses
> Harald
> > >with
> > > > > respectful 2nd person plural pronouns (yðru, þér),
> but
> > >is it
> > > > unusual
> > > > > for someone non-royal to call themselves "we" in
> front
> > >of a
> > > > king?
> > > > >
> > > > > I was just wondering if this was intended to add

> the
> > >humour
> > > > of an
> > > > > already quite fun scene, that poor little Auðun

very

> > > > respectfully
> > > > > and innocently talks back to the king, as if his

own

> > >decisions
> > > > carry
> > > > > as much weight as whatever the great Harald might
> decide-
> > >-and
> > > > the
> > > > > fact that the king good humouredly ignores the
> affront,
> > >or is
> > > > rather
> > > > > amused by it himself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Llama Nom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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