Erek,

Unfortunately, most easy-to-access material about Dalecarlian on the
net is made by one single guy, namely me (except some wordlists and
minor grammatical treatizes). Thus, there's not much out there.

It's a pitty that the Gutnish material by the group Propago (all
stuff in principle written by a single person, Anna-Carin Gahm, with
whom I used to exchange emails with quite frequently). I don't know
what happened to them, they seemed to have something going on and the
standardized written normal they had produced was really nice.



/Sjuler

> Sjuler,
>
> I (and am sure many others) look forward to your efforts on

Dalecarlian. Though most of us have probably heard of about it, I
know I've never had a real opportunity to see material about it. I
spent several hours this week-end past going over the material. Hope
to see more, and wish that more literature were readily available so
as to its actual use.

>
> It is disappointing that the Juntish material is mostly off the

web. Glad I was able to print it off whilst it was still available.

>
> Erek
>
>
> --- "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> I know the Faroese site at UniLang Wiki very well, and I know the

guy

> (Johan Petur Dam) who made it. In principle he translated a Faroese
> book on the subject into English and tranformed it into internet
> format. A very great job indeed.
> It is not too strange that Faroese is best represented langauge on
> UniLang Wiki since languages like English, Spanish, French etc are

so

> well known anyway.
> My Dalecarlian site is loosely based on the Faroese site, i.e. I am
> presenting my stuff in a quite similar way. My plan is to make the
> Dalecarlian BETTER represented than Faroese on Wiki. Of course,

this

> is because of the same reason as faroese is the best represented at
> the moment. Dalecarlian is even more unknown than Faroese, thus I
> believe that an extended work on Dalecarlian site will be

profitable.

>
>
> /Sjuler
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass <egass@...> wrote:
> > I don't know whether anyone posted (and I missed the info),
> but "wiki" also has a very nice Faeroese site -- in fact, it is the
> BEST represented language @ unilang2.
> >
> > Erek
> >
> >
> > --- pdhanssen@... wrote:
> >
> > Takk, Sjuler.
> >
> > Sorry it has taken me so long to reply.
> > To answer your question,
> > I do not remember how I found the Norrlandic site,
> > I thought that someone here in norse_course referred to it.
> > Anyway, from there, it wasn't hard to take a look at the

Jamtlandic

> contents.
> >
> > I shall miss them,
> > but I thank you and your friend for posting them.
> >
> > Good luck with the Dalecarlian pages at UniLang Wiki.
> >
> > Takk, Sjuler.
> > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > Paul.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/19/2004 4:18:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sjuler@... writes:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I found my copy of "An Introduction to Modern Faeroese"
> > > > by Lockwood and it is indeed spelled "Sjúrður".
> > > >
> > >
> > > Then we know (and will never forget) :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I thought it was the work of someone else,
> > > > > > someone who is also member of the norse_course discussion
> > > > > > But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
> > > > > > My notebook is packed away for the near future.
> > > >
> > > > I just remembered. I found a reference to Norrlandsko
> (Norrlandic)
> > > at this URL ...
> > > >
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/jamtlandic/norrlandic/norrlandic.html
> > > >
> > > > ... and to Jamtlandic at this URL ...
> > > >
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/jamtlandic/
> > > >
> > > > Both are by the same author, I think.
> > >
> > > Yes, they are indeed. I made them ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Have you and Bo Oscarsson seen these?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Me, sure, but I don't know if Bo has seen them.
> > > The one about Norrländska is about a conlang based on the
> dialects of
> > > the northern parts of Sweden; noone speak like this since it has
> > > fragments from most parts of the province. I invented it just

to

> play
> > > around and show it to other norrlanders as an internal

practical

> joke
> > > (a serious one, though), more or less.
> > > The one about Jamtlandic - which I hope I haven't linked to
> anywhere -
> > > is Jamtlandic with lots of etymological "corrections". The
> > > inflections are actually simpler than what you see on those

pages

> > > (but we DO have four cases!). I hoped only me and my brazilian
> friend
> > > should know about it, but you easily get the URL by deleting

the

> last
> > > parts of the URL for Norrlandic homepage (which I have linked

to

> at a
> > > few places). My plan was that I should delete the Jamtlandic
> pages as
> > > soon as my friend had finished the exercises, but still - after
> 1½
> > > year - he is working on it.
> > > BTW, how did you find these URL:s?
> > >
> > > I am currently working on the Dalecarlian pages at UniLang

Wiki,

> but
> > > those damn nasal vowels make me hesitate!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 3/17/2004 5:18:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > sjuler@... writes:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, pdhanssen@... wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees
> though, and
> > > > > he's
> > > > > > > the boss...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it's a good idea to keep the "r" in the spelling,
> > > > > > to show the kinship with the other Skandinaviska

languages.

> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmm, perhaps 'rð' should work in Jamtlandic spelling.
> > > Faroese 'ð' is
> > > > > never pronunced (not in the original manner, anyway), and
> they use
> > > > > it. Jamtlandic have the original pronunciation in some words
> > > > > (alternatively, it has become silent like in most other
> Mainland
> > > > > Norse dialects).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurð

ur".

> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I should look again, although right now it shall be a

little

> > > > > > hard to find my resources since we (my wife, 2 sons and

I)

> have
> > > > > just moved into a smaller apartment and most of my library

is

> > > packed
> > > > > away.
> > > > >
> > > > > Okay. The spelling 'Sjúrður' may be verified like

this.

> Search
> > > > > for 'Sjúrður' and 'Sjurður' on, e.g. (preferably),
> > > www.google.com . I
> > > > > get the following result:
> > > > >
> > > > > 'Sjúrður': 962 hits,
> > > > > 'Sjurður': 9 hits.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thus, 99% of the found spellings are 'Sjúrður', and I
> imagine that
> > > > > the reminder of 1% is due to misspelling (intentional?).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a

large

> > > number
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > internet references to someone's work on producing a
> grammar
> > > and
> > > > > on-
> > > > > > > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I thought it was the work of someone else,
> > > > > > someone who is also a member of the norse_course

discussion

> > > group.
> > > > > > But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
> > > > > > My notebook is packed away for the near future.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have made such a resource, but it is not linked to since

the

> > > > > material is not supposed to be spread outside a very limited
> > > group (I
> > > > > have copied material from Old Norse Course and rewritten

it).

> I
> > > can't
> > > > > give you the link here. The web pages will be terminated as
> soon
> > > as
> > > > > my friend (and Jamtlandic language student) is finished

with

> the
> > > > > course. I am intending to write one more similar to the
> > > Dalecarlian
> > > > > at UniLang Wiki, and less etymology (16h century
> conjugations and
> > > > > declinations) embedded in the grammar (but more in the
> spelling).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps Erek Gass can help us out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have you seen this other look at Dalecarlian?
> > > > > > ... http://www.mdstud.chalmers.se/~md2perpe/Dalska/ ...
> > > > > > ( ... http://kb.vefur.is/gestabok.asp ... )
> > > > >
> > > > > I know the first link since it was the first one about
> > > Dalecarlian I
> > > > > encountered.´
> > > > > The second link conains a poem in Jamtlandic with a very
> strange
> > > and
> > > > > bad spelling, but nothing about Dalecarlian there. I can't
> change
> > > the
> > > > > posting I made there on the Guestbook - yes, I am the guilty
> > > one :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > > > > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > > > > > Paul.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hälsningar,
> > > > >
> > > > > /Sjuler - (aka Jens Persson)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In a message dated 3/16/2004 5:43:14 PM Eastern Standard
> Time,
> > > > > sjuler@... writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > > > > > > I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
> > > > > > > > Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why

the

> > > > > dictionary is
> > > > > > > called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "
> > > > > > > > as I would have expected.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have been discussing the spelling 'rl' with Bo. He's
> really
> > > a
> > > > > fan
> > > > > > > of it since in Standard Swedish (based on Central

Swedish

> > > > > > > dialects), 'rl' is pronunced as a retroflex l
> > > > > > > ('pärla', 'karl', 'arla', 'farlig' etc), which is

quite

> > > similar to
> > > > > > > the cacuminal l which has replaced 'rð' in

Jamtlandic

> (and
> > > most
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > non-danish and non-southwestern norwegian dialects).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees
> though, and
> > > > > he's
> > > > > > > the boss...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurð

ur".

> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
> > > > > > > 16th (and 17th?) century Jamtlandic had 'Sjuler';

that's

> why
> > > I use
> > > > > > > this nick. Dalecarlian has preserved the '-er' ending

in

> the
> > > > > definite
> > > > > > > form of (strong masculine) nouns. For example, 'vargen'
> > > [wArr´Gen]
> > > > > > > (nom) vs 'vargin' [wArr´dZen] (ack) - 'the wolf'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the
> > > Dalecarlian
> > > > > > > language.
> > > > > > > > Sjuler, are you writing these pages?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, and I am far from finished. I am hesitating about

the

> > > > > > > orthography though, especially how to write nasal

vowels.

> I
> > > > > use 'ñ'
> > > > > > > in the web pages at the moment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a

large

> > > number
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > internet references to someone's work on producing a
> grammar
> > > and
> > > > > on-
> > > > > > > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is great that someone is preserving these

languages.

> > > > > > > > Can Gutniska be recovered?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Propago was trying a few years ago, but I haven't heard
> > > anything
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > them. Their email addresses have stopped working, so I
> cannot
> > > > > contact
> > > > > > > them :(
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > > > > > > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > > > > > > > Paul Hansen.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tack för visat intresse!
> > > > > > > Hälsningar,
> > > > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern

Standard

> > > Time,
> > > > > > > sjuler@... writes:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the
> > > province
> > > > > myself
> > > > > > > > > (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
> > > > > > > > > http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
> > > > > > > > > I assume you are referring to).
> > > > > > > > > Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect,
> and my
> > > > > > > ancestors
> > > > > > > > > spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland
> > > (province of
> > > > > > > > > Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with

Austrbotn

> > > not far
> > > > > > > away
> > > > > > > > > on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke
> like
> > > this
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > mid
> > > > > > > > > 14th century:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
> > > > > > > > > Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz
> Gunnasson
> > > > > > > logmader
> > > > > > > > > j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr
> Biarna
> > > > > > > Erlings-
> > > > > > > > > sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka
> skylldugha
> > > > > > > þ/oe/nosto.
> > > > > > > > > yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok

brefui

> ydru
> > > min
> > > > > > > herra
> > > > > > > > > tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a
> manadagin
> > > > > nesta
> > > > > > > ef-
> > > > > > > > > tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis
> > > ydars min
> > > > > > > herra
> > > > > > > > > vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna

sson

> > > vard aat
> > > > > > > skada
> > > > > > > > > vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins

dauda

> logligha
> > > till
> > > > > > > stemfdir.
> > > > > > > > > Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at

Olafuer ok

> Hunæfuer
> > > > > varo
> > > > > > > til
> > > > > > > > > gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer

fyrnemfdr

> eina aar
> > > ok
> > > > > stak
> > > > > > > > > Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at

Olafuer

> var
> > > > > lengi
> > > > > > > krankr
> > > > > > > > > af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort

hafua

> honom
> > > en
> > > > > > > Olafuer
> > > > > > > > > suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat

firir engum

> > > ilvilia.
> > > > > baro
> > > > > > > > > þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson

at so

> var
> > > ord
> > > > > eftir
> > > > > > > orde
> > > > > > > > > sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium

ual vm

> fim aar at
> > > > > þæir
> > > > > > > varo
> > > > > > > > > ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir

badir

> saman
> > > til
> > > > > > > > > R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum

kom

> þa
> > > Hunæfuer
> > > > > > > > > gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat

eii

> > > illa
> > > > > > > Olafuer
> > > > > > > > > min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui

nest stak

> Olafuer
> > > > > > > oftnemfdan
> > > > > > > > > Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf

þetta

> firir
> > > hitt
> > > > > er
> > > > > > > > > fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir

þat en

> þo do
> > > > > hann þar
> > > > > > > > > af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill
> Skeggia sson
> > > at
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > var
> > > > > > > > > sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni

þæira

> > > manna er
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok
> Helgho
> > > > > Vestars
> > > > > > > > > dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira
> samd/oe/ghers
> > > sem
> > > > > hann
> > > > > > > > > hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim

at þat

> sem
> > > Hunæfuer
> > > > > fæk
> > > > > > > af
> > > > > > > > > mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr

bana þa

> gerdi þat
> > > engin
> > > > > > > vttan
> > > > > > > > > ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok

tuttugta

> rikiss
> > > > > ydars
> > > > > > > min
> > > > > > > > > herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok

frendonum

> > > b/oe/tr
> > > > > eftir
> > > > > > > > > godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum

eii

> meiri
> > > > > vissu
> > > > > > > ok
> > > > > > > > > marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue
> settom
> > > mit
> > > > > okkorr
> > > > > > > > > insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a

deghi

> ok are
> > > sem
> > > > > fyr
> > > > > > > > > segir."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th
> > > century
> > > > > > > Sjugurðr
> > > > > > > > > (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would
> be 'Sjul'.
> > > > > Note
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > rð > l development here.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century
> language
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre
> > > > > Västmannalagen)
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > early 14th century:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne

mera æn

> andro. hafwe
> > > > > mæþan þön
> > > > > > > > > lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal

þæt til skift

> bæra. mæþ
> > > þera
> > > > > > > manna
> > > > > > > > > witnom þær hos waro þær faþer

ællær moþer utt

> gaff. oc
> > > tolf
> > > > > manna
> > > > > > > > > eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart

æfftær þy.

> þæt ær
> > > byrþom
> > > > > til
> > > > > > > > > boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis

mæþ

> hænne. ware
> > > þæghar
> > > > > full
> > > > > > > > > giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng

haffþen waret.

> §.2.
> > > Hafwe
> > > > > alldre
> > > > > > > > > ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One easily notices some differences in orthography,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > > > samples
> > > > > > > > > are too small to give real examples of differences.
> One is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > Old
> > > > > > > > > Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat'

=neut. 'it')

> and
> > > Old Up-
> > > > > > > > > Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt'

=neut. 'it'),

> though. Still
> > > > > today we
> > > > > > > > > notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and
> > > > > Swedish 'ty'.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of
> Mainland
> > > > > > > > > Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle
> unchanged
> > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
> > > > > > > > > Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish
> > > dialect,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly

less

> arcane.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass
> > > <egass@...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political
> > > > > implications
> > > > > > > > > applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom.

Sweden

> > > > > conquered
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > small domain around them and incorporated them,

often

> > > > > uneasily,
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that
> is "different".
> > > So
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet
> urls
> > > from
> > > > > > > > > Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting

history

> of
> > > how
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil
> during
> > > the
> > > > > > > medieval
> > > > > > > > > period as it went back and forth, and describes the
> > > suffering
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Jamtish population endured from the wars and
> occupations.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Erek
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were
> not in
> > > > > any way
> > > > > > > > > > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in
> Northern
> > > > > Sweden
> > > > > > > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My
> point
> > > here
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the

most

> > > > > > > conservative
> > > > > > > > > > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the
> written
> > > > > > > records.
> > > > > > > > > > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke

Viking

> age
> > > > > Norse in
> > > > > > > > > > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one
> should
> > > > > restrict
> > > > > > > > > > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West

Norse

> > > was the
> > > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > > > conservative branch amongst the known Norse
> dialects,
> > > often
> > > > > > > > > markedly
> > > > > > > > > > so."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary,
> grammar
> > > etc
> > > > > in an
> > > > > > > > > > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff

like

> > > pitch
> > > > > > > accent,
> > > > > > > > > > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal
> vowels,
> > > it
> > > > > may be
> > > > > > > > > > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here
> are
> > > some
> > > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > > samples:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
> > > > > > > > > > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Konrad, any comments on it?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
> > > > > > > > > > <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Berglaug
> > > > > Ásmundardóttir
> > > > > > > > > > > <berglauga@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only

sound

> > > which
> > > > > > > Icelandic
> > > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian
> dialects
> > > is
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > þ-
> > > > > > > > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants,
> which
> > > all
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak
> > > > > accident! ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Lovely, I might add ;)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > and wouldn't ð also be a 'preserved

sound'?

> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes, no doubt.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything
> like
> > > old
> > > > > norse
> > > > > > > > > was,
> > > > > > > > > > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their
> > > > > surroundings
> > > > > > > > > (that
> > > > > > > > > > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant
> changes
> > > are
> > > > > > > minimal.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe
> final
> > > d/b
> > > > > > > > > > (land/lamb)
> > > > > > > > > > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all.
> > > However,
> > > > > as you
> > > > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say
> quite
> > > > > radically
> > > > > > > so.
> > > > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we

could

> > > learn
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > > having to learn the whole language over again.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > (hmm.. same as with english,
> > > > > > > > > > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays..
> > > compared
> > > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > > > thousand years ago, at least)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a
> > > thousand
> > > > > > > years
> > > > > > > > > > ago.
> > > > > > > > > > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think what students need to understand about

old

> > > > > > > pronunciation
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and
> just
> > > as
> > > > > many
> > > > > > > ways
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we

had

> the
> > > > > > > Gautlandic
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and
> others. In
> > > my
> > > > > > > opinion,
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the
> east' -
> > > > > > > > > > conservative
> > > > > > > > > > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically
> > > differing
> > > > > > > > > > phonology
> > > > > > > > > > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly
> different in
> > > > > > > > > > pronunciation,
> > > > > > > > > > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary,

from

> West
> > > > > Norse.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West
> > > Norse is
> > > > > > > that it
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit).
> > > Because
> > > > > > > Faroese
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > Icelandic were once the same language as West
> > > Norwegian,
> > > > > > > matching
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a

fairly

> good
> > > > > idea of
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these
> tongues
> > > are
> > > > > > > > > pronounced
> > > > > > > > > > > today and doing the math. Although it had the

most

> > > > > complicated
> > > > > > > > > > vowel-
> > > > > > > > > > > system (through more mutations) and the least
> > > speakers of
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > nordic
> > > > > > > > > > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is

now

> by
> > > far
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > easiest
> > > > > > > > > > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis
> for
> > > > > > > comparison.
> > > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical
> inferiority ;)
> > > > > > > > > Fortunately,
> > > > > > > > > > > West Norse was the most conservative branch,

often

> > > > > markedly
> > > > > > > so.
> > > > > > > > > > Only
> > > > > > > > > > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully,

Gutnish

> was
> > > > > > > neglected,
> > > > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue.
> Our
> > > only
> > > > > book
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > tongue was written in the early 14th century.
> > > > > Fortunately, it
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > old
> > > > > > > > > > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its
> > > golden
> > > > > age. I
> > > > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old
> > > Icelandic
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-
> 1130,
> > > when
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > tongue
> > > > > > > > > > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Vesið ér heil (pronun.:

uesið êr

> hæil (short
> > > æ+i -
> > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > ei &
> > > > > > > > > > ai ;)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Konrad
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Konrad
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Berglaug
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off

an

> e-
> > > mail
> > > > > to:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

_____________________________________________________________

> > > > > > > > > > Free email, travel forums, user reviews, maps -

all

> at
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.caribbean-on-line.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an

e-

> mail
> > > > > > > > > to:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-

mail

> > > > > > > to:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > >
> > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > > > > to:
> > > > >
> > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > >
> > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
> > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > > to:
> > >
> > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
> >
> > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____________________________________________________________
> > Free email, travel forums, user reviews, maps - all at
> > http://www.caribbean-on-line.com
>
>
>
> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
>
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
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