Hi Sarah !
Thank you for your letter.
It may be that my English isn't up to par with yours,
since my knowledge of English grammar is mostly by
analogy with other languages. (I learned English
by reading, writing, speaking and listening)
I think you've had a very good formal training in the
English language, and that is why you are better able
than me to judge what is good English and what isn't.

From the point of view of understanding Old Norse, or
Icelandic, I do however not see it as a goal to be able
to produce good English translations. Personally, for
example, I dislike translations such as those by Byock,
because sometimes they are too smooth and make you
lose sight of grammatical details in the original text.
(for readers who merely want to read the story, without
comparing with the original ON text, they are, on the
other hand, probably excellent).

With respect to "láta", I see many translations by
"let" in Zoëga's Íslenzk-Ensk Órðabók. My feeling
is that "let" is a good word to describe what you
let servants do. You don't "make" servants do chores,
because that implies that you are behind them with
a cane at all times. In reality relationships with
servants are much more relaxed, and in the morning
they come and ask you what they are going to do today,
and then you say (for example): "Let's do the windows
today". Or with a hunting dog, you release it from
its leash and then you "let" it search for game.
(a good hunting dog loves its work)
The same thing with letting a dog fetch sticks.
A good dog keeps returning, begging you to let
it go on.

But maybe my feeling for the word has become influenced
by its usage in other languages. For example "Sie über-
läßt die Kinder der Fürsorge der Großmutter" (she lets
grandmother take care of the childeren - example from
Duden) But I think sometimes German "lassen" is translated
by English "to leave" (e.g. to leave behind).
And so you are definitely right that one cannot always
translate by strictly adhering to etymological principles.
Nevertheless, when I have a choice (=when it is not
wrong to do so), I prefer it for pedagogical reasons.

As a footnote I'd like to add that "let" is often used
in imperatives such as "let's do the dishes".

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary mentions the group
of synonyms let, allow, permit, suffer, where the shared
meaning element is "to neither forbid nor to prevent".
After thinking about it, I'd say that the word definitely
implies something that is relaxed.

Let it be !
:-)

Best regards
Xigung.


P.S. I believe that Old Norse nautical terminology sometimes
spoke about 'láta síga', which I read as "to let down"
or "to let glide". It is nature's forces that permit a
ship to move. But a helmsman may steer it by cooperating
with them (from the sagas):

"Þá lét hann kalla skip frá skipi að menn skyldu síga
láta seglin og heldur seint en svipta af handrifi og var svo gert."

"Þá lét Vagn undan síga og lágu skipin sem í fyrstu höfðu legið."

The nights were clear, so that both ships sailed night and day;
until one day, towards the time the day turns to shorten, Karle
and his people took up the land near an island, let down the sail,
cast anchor, and waited until the slack-tide set in, for there was
a strong rost before them.

He hailed from ship to ship the orders to let the sails gently sink,
and to unship the booms and outriggers, which was done. When
Erling saw this he calls out to his people, and orders them to
get on more sail. "Ye see," says he, "that their sails are
diminishing, and they are getting fast away from our sight." He
took the reef out of the sails of his ship, and outsailed all the
others immediately; for Erling was very eager in his pursuit of
King Olaf.








--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen" <bowensli@...>
wrote:
> Hi Xigung!
>
> Good to hear from you - you always come up with things that really
make me
> think! And that is good because I am still only a beginner
(started last
> Sept) and it's easy to rely on what my lecturers tell me and not
take that
> closer look the way you do.
>
> Words are such fascinating things and so difficult to translate
because
> there are different approaches. You mention the etymological
approach:
> "láta" should be the same as English "to let". Well, I'm not sure
the
> etymological route is necessarily the best way. It may work best
for
> languages which are still sufficiently closely related to ON (such
as
> mainland Scandinavian languages and possibly German). But on the
whole I
> prefer to grasp the meaning of a word or phrase and translate that,
even if
> it means moving away somewhat from the structure of the source
language.
>
> Let me give you a couple of examples using "láta". Two are from
modern
> Icelandic (which is more similar to ON than any other language) and
two from
> Old Norse itself.
>
> The first is from a translation of Einar Áskell we read at
college...
> "Einar Áskell lætur hundinn sækja spýtur, setjast á rassin og
fleira og
> fleira" Here the context is of a boy giving a dog commands - go
fetch! sit!
> etc etc. I don't think you could reasonably translate the
verb "láta" with
> the English "let" - it would be something like 'he made the dog go
fetch
> bits of wood, sit on his haunches and so on'. Or he told the dog,
he
> ordered the dog, he had the dog go fetch etc.
>
> The second is from another children's book....
> "Mamma hafði meira að segja gleymt að láta Jón Bjarna bursta í sér
tennurnar
> í kvöld". Again I don´t think the English word "let" is
appropriate here.
> What child is eager that their parent should 'let' them brush their
teeth at
> night!?!!
>
> These examples, like the Bodvar one, use láta + infinitive giving
the
> meaning to cause something to be done or command to be done.
>
> Here's one from Hrafnkel's Saga near the beginning of ch. 4. "Þat
er ráð
> mitt, at þú látir reka at hesta vára, ok búumsk heim." This is my
advice,
> that you have our horses driven in and we make for home.
>
> And another from the same saga, at the beginning of ch.5.
> "Þorgeirr valði lið sitt ok lét sér fylgja fjóra tigu manna."
Thorgeir
> picked his band and had 40 men go with him.
>
> I agree it would be nice if the structure of English were more
similar to
> other Germanic languages and we could therefore stay closer to the
structure
> of ON, but I don't think we can in this case. At least, not
without losing
> something of the original meaning and making the English
look 'translated'.
>
> As for "því", yes that's certainly a tricky little word in this
context!!!
> Perhaps you're right, the original meaning did contain some element
of
> comparison and so the dative was used.
>
> Lastly, you mention about
> "Kómusk þá fyrir Hrólf konung öll sannindi hér um"
> and you are right, the subject of the verb is "öll sannindi".
> Sannindi is a neuter plural noun and
> öll is the neuter plural form of 'allr'.
>
> The more I study language, the more fascinated I become by the
variety of
> constructions languages use to express meaning. Sometimes there is
a
> clearly recognisable overlap from one language to another, and
sometimes
> there just isn't!!!
>
> Kveðja,
> Sarah.