Guäðan aptan, Konrad!
--- In
norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "konrad_oddsson"
<konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
> Góðan aptan, Arnljótr!
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Jens Persson" <arnljotr@...>
> wrote:
> > Godan aftan, Konrad!
>
> > "The short of this sound heard in 'daogum' is not nasalized - I
> hope this clears up the confusion."
>
> > But the u-umlauted á (often nasalized) may have been nasal?
>
> Any vowel can be nasal or non-nasal in Old Norse - it depends on
> whether or not it stands before or after a nasal consonant (or did
> stand there before the nasal consonant itself disappeared).
--This is perfectly clear to me.
A big
> part of the problem is that mideaval writers did not write nasals
> (even when they pronounced them). This is the sad truth.
--Writers usually did not emphasize vowel length either. Of course,
people did not write their texts for 21th century linguists, but for
a contemporary public that just did not need information about vowel
length, nasality or even voiced or unvoiced consonants (Viking age
runic writers). This is sad for us today.
The first
> grammatical treatise (circa 1140-1150), however, goes a long way
> toward establishing the truth. It explains that the language has 9
> basic vowels, each of which could be either long or short (read: 9
> times 2 = 18); furthermore, it explains that each of these nine can
> also occur in nasalized varieties (read: 18 times 2 = 36).
--What about the so called "half-long vowels"? The vowels that makes
(most) Icelanders say, e.g., [laonggur] for 'langur' (adj.)? Here
the 'a' was not long as in 'fá' (verb) or short as in 'rakki' (noun).
This could be denoted with a grave accent `: 'làngr'.
Mainland Scandinavian dialectal examples:
'toungg' (adj.) - from 'thùngr' (Överkalixmål),
'laungg' (adj.) - from 'làngr' (Dalska, South Jamtlandic),
'haul' (adj.) - from 'hàrdhr' (South Jamtlandic),
'uord' (noun) - from 'òrdh' (Dalska).
Why did the first grammatical treatize put these into the group of
short vowels? (I assume it did)
Although
> the grammarian implies that both long and short vowels could be
> nasalized, in actuality he only gives examples for the long grades.
> Until relatively modern times, the 'first grammarian' (as he is
call-
> ed) was openly attacked as a writer of fantasies. Few believed that
> he was telling the truth about there being nasals in Norse at the
> time he lived (from 11-12th century Iceland). In short, he had been
> completely ignored. To this day, Old Norse texts are printed
without
> nasalization. During the last few decades, however, the so-called
> First Grammarian has been resurrected from the dead and proven
right
> - yes, PROVEN RIGHT. Modern linguists have examined the evidence
> (runic, comparative Germanic, other) and shown that there were in
> fact nasals in Old Norse during his time.
--Yes, of course it must have ben; even today Dalska has them in many
words:
'Tûosdag' - Thursday (German: Donnerstag),
'gôs' - goose (German: Ganze?),
'ô' - on,
'ôs' - Proto-Germanic 'ansuz',
'siô' - see (German: 'sehen'),
'ûo-' - 'un-' ('unhappy', 'uneasy' etc),
'bôs' - booth, stall (German: Banse).
There are many more examples. One noticable thing is that 'ô'
(nasalized 'o') is frequently occuring, which corresponds to a
nasalized 'á' in Old Norse.
I definetly believes that the vowels were nasalized in most northern
Scandinavian dialects until a few centuries ago, since there are
strong traces of nasalized vowels there. Example: 'bjerkô' (birches,
dative) in Överkalixmål.
[...]
I am swimming upstream against a mighty tide.
> Nevertheless, I can and will provide examples of nasals in Old
Norse
> - I am making a list of them from various academic sources. As you
> are interested in this subject, I will post some examples of words
> with nasal vowels - some of them may shock our readers.
--I look forward to see examples. I don't know if I will be shocked,
but it will affect me somehow.
Also, as you
> asked me about differences between East and West Norse, I looked
the
> subject up in several scholarly publications and will post some of
> what I found as I find the time.
--Will definitely be interesting.
Thank you for your patience.
--As a good scandinavian, I thank you in return.
>
> Regards,
> Konrad.
>
/Arnljotr
>
> Please,
> > give an example of an u-umlauted á which can be seen alive in
> written
> > Modern Icelandic.
> >
> > Skål ta mej faan!
> >
> > Best regards,
> > /arAnliotAr
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "konrad_oddsson"
> > <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
> > > Minor correction:
> > >
> > > > The Old Norse Ö in 'dögum' was pronounced just like the
> regular A
> > > in the other cases of the same word - only it was nasalized ( =
> > short
> > > nasal A). The pronounciation Ö (and spelling) are later."
> > >
> > > Now I see where the confusion was coming from. Instead
> > of 'nasalized'
> > > what I meant to say was that the A was pronounced "in the
> > direction"
> > > of O. The short of this sound heard in 'daogum' is not
> nasalized -
> > I
> > > hope this clears up the confusion. Please see the vowel-sets
> shown
> > in
> > > my 3rd post about the 'vowel-system' for more information.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Konrad.