On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 11:53:14AM -0500, Lewis, Raymond J. wrote:

> I'm a bit confused. Is not this discussion group centered
> around the norse course found at www.hi.si/~haukurth/norse?

It is indeed. More correctly, it was founded as a discussion forum
in support of that course. However it was decided fairly early on
(while both course authors were still involved with the group) to include
people with more advanced interests, within the general area of
Scandinavian languages, particularly Old Norse/Old Icelandic.
I think the reasons for this were practical; there's not much use
to a group where everyone's a beginner; we need people who can
answer begineers' questions, and the course authors didn't have
time and enthusiasm to do all that work themselves. Moreover,
they are interested in languages in general. Haukur Thorgeirrsson
"only" knows 4 or 5 (I may have remembered that on the low side,
particularly if you count those he's only beginning to learn), and
Oskar knows rather more. (This appears to be fairly normal in Iceland;
they all seem to learn English and [I believe] Danish in school (not
university), and then like as not learn a few others out of curiousity,
since language learning gets easier the more you know.)

> If this is indeed the case, then why is it that nearly all the
> discussion generated on the norse_course discussion group is so clearly
> authored by people with an understanding WELL beyond the parameters
> established within the course?

Very good question. I'm just about as frustrated as you are, but the only
people with much to say seem to be those whose postings are too advanced
to even be comprehensible to the people this course is intended to serve.

That's one reason I'm glad to see you posting. It's also why I responded
to Teja on list, rather than offlist.

[big snip]

> As an abject beginner, I can say that the present discussion seems very
> sophisticated, scholarly, and completely intimidating. Tell me, what am I
> now in a position to add to the discussion that doesn't seem utterly
> ridiculous?

What I suggest doing is ignoring it. I stopped reading it long ago. I don't
even attempt Konrad's translation exercises, because they appear as a bunch
of stuff in Icelandic with no introduction in English.

For the record here, I'm not all that much more advanced than you are.
I was the "guinea pig" for early versions of this course, and continued
studying the language from books and offlist conversations with Icelanders.
However, I can't read the language, just painstakingly translate it, with
many errors; nor can I handle anything too complex.

One advantage I do have is that Icelandic is not my second language, but
about my fourth, depending on exactly what you count. The second language
is very much the hardest; unfortunately, many of the advanced members of this
list learned their second and third languages as children, as I did, and
may not remember this quite so clearly. (I've been living in the US, where
what I consider my so-so linguistic ability generally impresses people a lot,
so I get reminded very frequently how hard it is to cross that first second
language hurdle, especially as an adult.)

I've been to some extent the class gofer from the beginning, and my role
as moderator is part of that pattern; I'm online and available more than
Haukur, and the group needed someone who'd be able to check messages daily,
several times a day.

> With this in mind, please consider the following comment by Teja
> Johnson-Lewis with the reply by Arlie Stephens who declares himself to be a
> moderator:
>
> **************************************************************************
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 02:12:11PM -0800, Teja Johnson-Lewis wrote:
> >
> > Hi ya, everybody in the norse course groups!
> >
> > Now, I'm not going to sit here and delete messages that I don't
> > understand. All this stuff is very brilliant and all, BUT I just
> > don't get it. I think all the people like me are in hiding, scared
> > to feel silly, but then again...what do you think I am??
>
> Certainly much of the material that's been posted recently is not
> suitable for beginners. The only solution to that, however, would
> be for beginners to do more posting.
> **************************************************************************
> Sorry Teja, Arlie says that you should just "get over it". Sorry Arlie,
> but I must say that your solution only seems thoughtless.

You were pretty well reasoned, _and reasonable_, until this point. But this
is not what I said.

What would you suggest instead? That we convert this list to a general
Asatru list, and discuss the mythology, as read in translation? That's
what Teja appeared to me to want. If that's what you want, I could
suggest any of a dozen alternate lists, and those would just be the ones
I'm personally subscribed to.

> __________________________________________________________________________
>
> And now, if I may indulge in Arlie's proposed solution, I actually have
> a knuckle headed question/statement of my own (gasp!). As I have said, I
> have recently finished the sixth lesson in the norse course at www.h - well
> - you get it, and I've gone on to number seven. Unfortunately, there's
> really not much to it beyond the grammar section. I've grown accustomed to
> the wonderful reading and writing exercises and have found them to be
> rewarding. Unfortunately, when I look elsewhere for so-called "easy reading"
> material, I find it way beyond where I'm presently at. I'm familiar with
> Latin and German GRADED readers which don't require one's eyes to be glued
> to the glossary since they predominantly consist of words already contained
> within ones limited vocabulary. My guess is that there probably isn't
> something like this, for Old Norse, that might extend backwards to my
> present skills (as discussed above). Does anyone have any ideas?

I really wish Haukur had the time and enthusiasm to continue writing more
lessons. He does a wonderful job with them, and I really haven't seem
anything equivalent, at least not in English. The closest I've seen is
_Easy Readings in Old Icelandic_ on an Australian university web site.
I believe this is taken from a now out of print book, possibly part of
a series of books for several languages.

> Also, I have written my own exercises - although I, of course, cannot
> know how "correct" they are. Perhaps we beginners could consider posting
> homespun exercises for the group's consideration (gulp!)? That is, if the
> more advanced members didn't find it impossible to appreciate.

That sounds interesting. Please do so.

>
> Raymond Jess Lewis (de los Estados Unidos)

--
Arlie

(Arlie Stephens arlie@...)