--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xigung" <xigung@...> wrote:

> Konrad wrote:
> > I hope that this information about the vowel-system in 3 parts

has been informative and helpful to some of you. Happy Norse-
learning.

>
> Yes, that was informative!

Thank you. This was my goal.

> (though I can't say I have internalized it yet)
> Part of the difficulty lies in our different backgrounds,
> and each one of us needs to base his understanding
> upon his or her own particular sound system that he has
> grown up with.

It is one thing to learn the old vowels 'on paper' and quite another
to pronounce them. In the 'corrected' and conservative rows 1-9 I
showed always the same vowel thrice in each row - short, long, and
nasalized. I consider this spelling to be the most conservative and
historically clear in terms of the orgins and relations between the
vowels - also, it gives a better idea about pronounciation.

> For example, in my last post I wrote something which
> must be wrong. The example I had in mind was "Laxdæla
> saga" which is how I believe it is written in Icelandic.
> Pronunciation should be (and I hope I get it right this time)
> as "Laxdaila saga". (Like in Tom Jones' "Delilah")

Yes. That is how it is pronounced. Notice, however, the word 'doell'
in Old Norse/Icelandic - it is a masculine noun meaning 'dalesman',
said to be used mostly in compounds (Laxdoelir, Fljótsdoelir, Vatns-
doelir, &co). The 'oe', which is a mutation of 'o' (in this case of
long 'o'), became 'æ' in Icelandic when both 'oe' and 'æ' ran
together into one sound. Modern 'æ' is deceptive in this word - it
seems to suggest a mutation from 'a' (as in m.'dalr' - dale), but is
in fact related to the same 'oe' in f. 'doel, doeld' (a little dale,
recess).

> So the modern Icelandic "æ" is the diphtong (right?)

Yes, it is pronounced like 'ai' today. Notice, however, that the
short of Old Norse 'æ' became identical with 'e', while the long
eventually became Modern Icelandic 'æ'.

> I also recall "bát" being pronounced "båt" in Norway,
> but in Iceland it is a diphtong like in "baot". Is that
> correct?

I would transliterate it 'au' instead of 'ao' to avoid confusion
with the Old Norse 'ao' sound (variously written 'ao', hooked 'o',
or 'a/-av-au'). It sounds something like English 'out'. The sound
'a' could be short or long in Old Norse.

> My mixup, where I knew the error the minute after I had
> sent the email, is because in Norway we write "døl"
> e.g. "Gudbrandsdøl" and also "Laxdøla".

See above about 'dalr' and 'deol/doeld'.

> But of course, in Iceland it is "Laxdæla" which is actually
> much more confusing than you can probably imagine ~:-)

> I have mostly concentrated on Old Norse, where the
> pronounciation is more or less clear to me.

Yes, but compare the old vowels (nasal and all) to the abreviated
character-set used to print most old texts. I think it dependes on
the age of the material.

> When I read Icelandic, I usually pronounce it as
> if it were Old Norse, which works fine as far as I am
> concerned, though I wouldn't volunteer reading aloud
> to someone who has an inkling of the modern language, since
> they would probably find it rather comical.
>
> This means then, I suddenly realize, that I seem to
> lack some good examples of Icelandic words with ö
> and how they are pronounced. Can you provide some?
> höfðing? fjöl? sögur?

höfðingi - masc. chieftain
fjölmargur - adj. great-many
sögur - fem. pl. of 'saga'

Regards,
Konrad.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> With respect to "systems" I see that for my own
> part, I need to take the "five" classical vowels
> as point of departure. They are:
>
> A E I O U (5)
>
> (they work in most European languages, but NOT in English)
> Then, for Norwegian add the Y:
>
> A E I O U Y (6)
>
> (Y is somewhat like German ü)
>
> Then also add the 3 exceptional Norwegian letters æ ø å
> and obtain
>
>
> A E I O U Y Æ Ø Å (9)
>
> Which means that we have the same number of base
> wowels in Norwegian as you had in your table of 9 entries.
> Add to these the diphtongs
>
> AI AU EI OI ØY
>
> examples: hai, haug, heim, ohoi, høy,
> mai, smau, meir, koie, møy
> kai, dau, deig, døy
>
> In order to understand the Icelandic vovels, I'd have
> to use the above simple system as basis. But the same wouldn't
> work for someone from England or Ameriac, because they'd probably
> find the Norwegian system equally or almost equally difficult.
>
> Regards
> Xigung