Re: 'Ek em frá Aust-Ögðum' - Oddur Gottskálksson þýddi

Hi Konrad!
I think the real question is why Norwegian
lost it's old morphological system, similar
to what happened to Swedish and Danish.

If it was "danish influence" as you suggest in Norway,
was it also influence from Danish that changed Swedish
along the same lines of change?

Take another example: Dutch and English are both
(closely related) West Germanic languages,
and they also happened to loose their old morphological
systems along similar lines. Influence of English
on Dutch? (or vice versa? in Northern Ireland they still
carry the orange flag)

And why were the changes that took place in English and Dutch
so similar to those that took place in Danish, Norwegian
and Swedish?

And why was it that many 16th century Norwegians from
SW Norway were able to read Old Norse?
(see http://www.ukm.uio.no/colmed/z-jorg93.htm
about Peder Claussøn, famous Heimskringla translator
from SW Norway)

It has been said that Danish did not come to Norway
with its full weight until the 19th century !

Official documents may have been in Danish, but that
is not the way people spoke!

Bokmål is from the 20th century and it has 3 genders
with neuter a-endings. The language that has only 2 genders
is called Riksmål, and that is the language used by
most publishers (newspapers, books, etc). Well, until
recently. Now people don't seem to be paying much attention
to how they speak and write at all. But that's another story.

Before it used to be "landsmål" versus "riksmål".
(19th century)

I agree that they do not speak "danish" in Agder.
It is only the soft consonants that are deceiving.

Setesdøl is also Agder. But the language there
must be seen as a separate development from Old
Norse, different from developments in other places.
If you try to read it, you need to know a lot
more than Danish!

Any way, I thank you for your spirited contribution!

Bless, bless,
Xigung


















--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "konrad_oddsson"
<konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:

> Heill Terje!
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
> <radiorabia@...> wrote:
> > If I speak Danish, you speak Norwegian.
> > And both of us speak German.
>
> True. Modern Bokmål and Modern Danish are classed together by

modern

> linguists. Old Norse (Norroena) and Old Danish (Dansk Tunga)
> are also classed together by modern linguists. Finally, all four of
> them are classed as 'Germanic' languages - each of the four descend-
> ing by different paths from Proto-Germanic through Proto-Norse.
>
> However strange it may sound at first, the statement 'Norwegians
> speak Danish, but Icelanders and Faroe Islanders speak Norwegian'

is

> true. Of course, one would never actually say it like that - the
> statement is too confusing for a number of reasons: 1) the 'Danish'
> of today is not the same as the classical 'Dönsk Tunga' of yore 2)
> modern Norwegian and modern Danish are not 'identical', neither in
> vocabulary or in pronounciation, despite be-ing classed together 3)
> modern Icelandic is not 'identical' to the 'Norroena' of yore,
> neither in vocabulary or pronounciation 4) modern Faroese is not
> 'identical' to the 'Norroena' of yore, neither in vocabulary or in
> pronounciation. Yet despite these and similar facts, the statement
> 'Norwegians speak Danish, but Icelanders and Faroe Islanders speak
> Norwegian' is true from a linguist´s point of view. Of course, we
> should be careful to use standard terminology when discussing the
> modern languages in the company of non-specialists: Swedish,

Danish,

> Norwegian, Faroese, Icelandic, etc..
>
> > Sørlandsk (Norwegian from the south (coast)) has several
> dialects, none of which are excactly the same as Danish, norsk
> bokmål,
>
> Yes.
>
> nynorsk, or old norse for that matter.
>
> The dialects are 'close' to each other, but 'far' from Old Norse.
>
> It's a dialect. Or to be more precise, a bunch of dialects,
> > a dialectal area. Sørlandsk is no more danish than the other
> norwegian dialects just because the pronounciation is different.
>
> True. Pronounciation has little or nothing to do with how linguists
> actually classify languages and dialects thereof. Two people can
> speak the 'same' language with pronounciations so divergent that

all

> communication is rendered impossible. It would be very hard to say
> what is 'more danish' - impossible, in fact, without examining the

2

> major factors linguists DO use for classification purposes: grammar
> and vocabulary. I doubt that Sörlandsk is 'more danish' than other
> closely related Norwegian dialects.
>
> Where I come from,
> > Lillesand, we have plenty of words more commonly assosiated with
> nynorsk or old norse, but not danish. For example, we say 'au' (ON
> ok/auk) instead of 'også'.
>
> True. It is a fact that some features from Old Norse have survived
> in various modern Norwegian dialects which have not in the Standard
> Modern Danish. These survivals are dispersed throughout the country
> in a rather uneven fashion. Even the Black Death and centuries of
> Danish rule could not completely wipe out all traces of Old Norse.
>
> Anyway, my point is that norwegian has been severly crippled by
> > other languages like german, danish and english (or rather latin-
> based words), yet it's still norwegian.
>
> True, the core of the language is still Norse.
>
> The people didn't stop speaking norsk, but
> > it changed. Sad, but true.
>
> Norway was hit harder than any country in Europe by the Black

Death -

> scholars are still trying to calculate what percentage of the total
> population actually died, but current estimates run roughly between
> 60-80% (based on recent articles I have seen). We know that entire
> districts were in some cases inherited by sole surviving

individuals

> - not just one farm, but all of the farms in a given area. Just try
> to imagine this state of affairs. Almost the entire clergy, as well
> as the literate upper class, are believed to have perished. In many
> cases, children were left to teach children everything from how to
> speak to the facts of life. From the Black Death onwards, the

tongue

> suffered one blow after another: foreign rule, no schools, burning
> of monasteries and centers of learning during the reformation, the
> execution of Catholic clergy, large immigration by individual not
> able to speak Norse, and finally - economic and cultural dominance
> by the majority non-West Norse speaking population over the

outlying

> rural areas, where the remains of West Norse were spoken.
>
> It is important to bear these tragedies in mind when trying to

under-

> stand what happened to the language of Norway. Norway was not alone
> in suffering from the Black Death. All of Scandinavia was hit hard.
> As far as West Norse in concerned, both Iceland and the Faroes were
> hit by the Black Death. While it did not entirely wipe out the

whole

> population, it did kill huge numbers of people. Did the Black Death
> effect the language in Iceland or the Faroe Islands? Yes, for sure -

> the years during and after the Black Death changed how the language
> was pronounced and spoken. Isolation was one of many factors as to
> why these languages survived. Strangly enough, what Icelanders and
> Faroe Islanders speak today is actually OLDER than anything spoken
> in these regions since the Black Death. But that is a long story -
> ask about that another time.
>
> Kveðja,
> Konráð.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
> > >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: [norse_course] Re: 'Ek em frá Aust-Ögðum' - Oddur
> Gottskálksson
> > >þýddi
> > >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 03:32:15 -0000
> > >
> > >Sæll Terje!
> > >
> > >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
> > ><radiorabia@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "With sout Norwegian I mean the dialects spoken not in the
> south
> > >east, but rather in the extreme south and south west. In this

area

> > >people speak with a very strong Danish accent, which makes the
> > >classifications quite difficult."
> > > >
> > > > I come from a small town near Kristiansand in Aust-Agder, so I
> > >speak south norwegian. Yet to me, it's not that much Danish.

True,

> > >many of us use soft consonants rather than hard (e.g. d instead

of

> > >t), but I think there's a common misconception that down south,

we

> > >speak almost Danish.
> > >
> > >You speak Danish. I have relatives from Aust-Ögðum and have
> visited
> > >and stayed in the area. I also inherited a lot of books

published

> in
> > >southern Norway during roughly the 17th - 19th centuries. Prior
> the
> > >Norwegian independence, the published language of southern Norway
> > >(usually called 'Bokmål') was actually called Danish (which is

the

> > >'correct' term for the language). The name 'Bokmål' was chosen
> after
> > >independence, largely for political reasons. Originally, 'Bokmål'
> > >was a term used by Norwegians to refer to the Danish language as
> it
> > >appeared in books - this was before most Norwegians had learned

to

> > >read or speak this new 'Bokmål', in the aftermath of the
> protestant
> > >reformation. The Danish-speaking merchant class in southern

Norway

> > >had grown tremendously in power and prestige since the Black

Death

> > >nearly destroyed Norway roughly two centuries earlier. West Norse
> > >(the original language) as a living language was dead in most of
> > >southern Norway by the reformation. Those who still spoke it were
> > >looked down on by the gentile 'upper' classes, who spoke
> the 'educa-
> > >ted' 'book'-language of the Danes, who were then in charge of the
> > >country. There were few schools, especially in the poorer

outlying

> > >areas where the language was still descended from Norse rather
> than
> > >Modern Danish. While the Black Death left Norway reeling and

close

> > >to linguistic extinction, it was the reformation that delivered
> the
> > >death-blow to Norse in Norway. The fatal decision was made by the
> > >wealthy ruling elite in the south of the country - it was a
> decision
> > >made purely in their own self-interest (they could not understand
> > >the Norse language), a decision which would later greatly anger
> the
> > >rural population of their country after indepence, a decision
> which
> > >would damn their own country to linguistic extinction - the

Danish

> > >Bible. Yes, that´s right - the Danish Bible and the thousands of
> > >Biblical tracts and commentaries printed and disributed to every
> > >home in the Danish language. The Danish Bible - read every

Sunday

> at
> > >church, every day at home. Did they have a choice? Yes, they did.
> > >They had a choice and they made the wrong decision - they chose
> the
> > >Bible only they could read (the fancy 'bokmål' one) over the one
> the
> > >rest of their impoverished countrymen would be able to

understand.

> > >They rejected the excellent New Testament translation made by
> Oddur
> > >Gottskálsson into Norse, which became the basis for all of the
> later
> > >Icelandic versions. Oddur was 1/2 Norwegian and 1/2 Icelandic -
> and,
> > >most importantly, he offered both countries his translation (more
> > >correctly, others did his bidding for him). Oddur translated the
> New
> > >Testament into Norse secretly as he laboured away secretly night
> > >after night in a 'fjós' (Norse for 'cow-house', older 'féhús').

He

> > >had to hide his work from the Bishop of Skálholt - fourtunately
> for
> > >Oddur, the bishop was old and going blind. To this day, Norway is
> > >the only Scandinavian country not to have a Bible in its
> language -
> > >for this we have the Danish-speaking ruling class to thank, a
> class
> > >which did not care for the welfare and education of their
> countrymen
> > >until long after independence from Denmark. Truely, they still
> don´t
> > >care - they never have. Only Ireland lost a higher percetage of
> its
> > >native population than Norway to the United States and Canada.
> Why?
> > >Need we ask? Their ARE real West Norse words for what was

happing

> in
> > >Norway from the Black Death (svarti dauðinn) down to our times -

a

> > >few are 'lénsmennska', 'lénsríki' and 'lénssjórn'. There is a
> class
> > >of cold and cruel robber-barons in every Scandinavian country
> (there
> > >is no exception to this rule), but in no Scandinavian country

have

> > >they committed worse crimes against their own countrymen than in
> Nor-
> > >way. I have heard it said 'they should have been hung for
> treason'.
> > >Without taking sides on the issue of capital punishment, I will
> say
> > >that I am firmly opposed to their plans for the 'Norwegian'
> language.
> > >
> > >Oddur Gottskálksson þýddi - en honum enginn hlýddi
> > >
> > >Kveðja,
> > >Konráð.
> > >
> > >P.S. I once recall hearing a rather well-educated Norwegian woman
> > >complain about all of the mideaval Norwegian art and valuables

now

> > >sitting in Danish Museums. I told her, 'One can take a ferry and
> > >visit friends and museums in Denmark - one cannot take a ferry to
> > >visit the language of Norway'. As she obviously had no clue what

I

> > >was even talking about, I informed her that Norwegians can now
> stop
> > >blaming the Danes - nothing happened without the full co-

operation

> > >of the self-interested and guilty in back home in Norway.
> > >
> > >Ask any educated Icelander and you will likely receive a similar
> > >answer about what went on in Iceland during the long years

leading

> > >up to independence - 'you know, connections, money to be made,
> etc.'
> > >
> > >May we have happier Nordic tides in years to come.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Konrad.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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