From: xigung
Message: 2838
Date: 2003-03-25
> Heill Terje!modern
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
> <radiorabia@...> wrote:
> > If I speak Danish, you speak Norwegian.
> > And both of us speak German.
>
> True. Modern Bokmål and Modern Danish are classed together by
> linguists. Old Norse (Norroena) and Old Danish (Dansk Tunga)is
> are also classed together by modern linguists. Finally, all four of
> them are classed as 'Germanic' languages - each of the four descend-
> ing by different paths from Proto-Germanic through Proto-Norse.
>
> However strange it may sound at first, the statement 'Norwegians
> speak Danish, but Icelanders and Faroe Islanders speak Norwegian'
> true. Of course, one would never actually say it like that - theDanish,
> statement is too confusing for a number of reasons: 1) the 'Danish'
> of today is not the same as the classical 'Dönsk Tunga' of yore 2)
> modern Norwegian and modern Danish are not 'identical', neither in
> vocabulary or in pronounciation, despite be-ing classed together 3)
> modern Icelandic is not 'identical' to the 'Norroena' of yore,
> neither in vocabulary or pronounciation 4) modern Faroese is not
> 'identical' to the 'Norroena' of yore, neither in vocabulary or in
> pronounciation. Yet despite these and similar facts, the statement
> 'Norwegians speak Danish, but Icelanders and Faroe Islanders speak
> Norwegian' is true from a linguist´s point of view. Of course, we
> should be careful to use standard terminology when discussing the
> modern languages in the company of non-specialists: Swedish,
> Norwegian, Faroese, Icelandic, etc..all
>
> > Sørlandsk (Norwegian from the south (coast)) has several
> dialects, none of which are excactly the same as Danish, norsk
> bokmål,
>
> Yes.
>
> nynorsk, or old norse for that matter.
>
> The dialects are 'close' to each other, but 'far' from Old Norse.
>
> It's a dialect. Or to be more precise, a bunch of dialects,
> > a dialectal area. Sørlandsk is no more danish than the other
> norwegian dialects just because the pronounciation is different.
>
> True. Pronounciation has little or nothing to do with how linguists
> actually classify languages and dialects thereof. Two people can
> speak the 'same' language with pronounciations so divergent that
> communication is rendered impossible. It would be very hard to say2
> what is 'more danish' - impossible, in fact, without examining the
> major factors linguists DO use for classification purposes: grammarDeath -
> and vocabulary. I doubt that Sörlandsk is 'more danish' than other
> closely related Norwegian dialects.
>
> Where I come from,
> > Lillesand, we have plenty of words more commonly assosiated with
> nynorsk or old norse, but not danish. For example, we say 'au' (ON
> ok/auk) instead of 'også'.
>
> True. It is a fact that some features from Old Norse have survived
> in various modern Norwegian dialects which have not in the Standard
> Modern Danish. These survivals are dispersed throughout the country
> in a rather uneven fashion. Even the Black Death and centuries of
> Danish rule could not completely wipe out all traces of Old Norse.
>
> Anyway, my point is that norwegian has been severly crippled by
> > other languages like german, danish and english (or rather latin-
> based words), yet it's still norwegian.
>
> True, the core of the language is still Norse.
>
> The people didn't stop speaking norsk, but
> > it changed. Sad, but true.
>
> Norway was hit harder than any country in Europe by the Black
> scholars are still trying to calculate what percentage of the totalindividuals
> population actually died, but current estimates run roughly between
> 60-80% (based on recent articles I have seen). We know that entire
> districts were in some cases inherited by sole surviving
> - not just one farm, but all of the farms in a given area. Just trytongue
> to imagine this state of affairs. Almost the entire clergy, as well
> as the literate upper class, are believed to have perished. In many
> cases, children were left to teach children everything from how to
> speak to the facts of life. From the Black Death onwards, the
> suffered one blow after another: foreign rule, no schools, burningoutlying
> of monasteries and centers of learning during the reformation, the
> execution of Catholic clergy, large immigration by individual not
> able to speak Norse, and finally - economic and cultural dominance
> by the majority non-West Norse speaking population over the
> rural areas, where the remains of West Norse were spoken.under-
>
> It is important to bear these tragedies in mind when trying to
> stand what happened to the language of Norway. Norway was not alonewhole
> in suffering from the Black Death. All of Scandinavia was hit hard.
> As far as West Norse in concerned, both Iceland and the Faroes were
> hit by the Black Death. While it did not entirely wipe out the
> population, it did kill huge numbers of people. Did the Black Deatharea
> effect the language in Iceland or the Faroe Islands? Yes, for sure -
> the years during and after the Black Death changed how the language
> was pronounced and spoken. Isolation was one of many factors as to
> why these languages survived. Strangly enough, what Icelanders and
> Faroe Islanders speak today is actually OLDER than anything spoken
> in these regions since the Black Death. But that is a long story -
> ask about that another time.
>
> Kveðja,
> Konráð.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
> > >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: [norse_course] Re: 'Ek em frá Aust-Ögðum' - Oddur
> Gottskálksson
> > >þýddi
> > >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 03:32:15 -0000
> > >
> > >Sæll Terje!
> > >
> > >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
> > ><radiorabia@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "With sout Norwegian I mean the dialects spoken not in the
> south
> > >east, but rather in the extreme south and south west. In this
> > >people speak with a very strong Danish accent, which makes theTrue,
> > >classifications quite difficult."
> > > >
> > > > I come from a small town near Kristiansand in Aust-Agder, so I
> > >speak south norwegian. Yet to me, it's not that much Danish.
> > >many of us use soft consonants rather than hard (e.g. d insteadof
> > >t), but I think there's a common misconception that down south,we
> > >speak almost Danish.published
> > >
> > >You speak Danish. I have relatives from Aust-Ögðum and have
> visited
> > >and stayed in the area. I also inherited a lot of books
> inthe
> > >southern Norway during roughly the 17th - 19th centuries. Prior
> the
> > >Norwegian independence, the published language of southern Norway
> > >(usually called 'Bokmål') was actually called Danish (which is
> > >'correct' term for the language). The name 'Bokmål' was chosento
> after
> > >independence, largely for political reasons. Originally, 'Bokmål'
> > >was a term used by Norwegians to refer to the Danish language as
> it
> > >appeared in books - this was before most Norwegians had learned
> > >read or speak this new 'Bokmål', in the aftermath of theNorway
> protestant
> > >reformation. The Danish-speaking merchant class in southern
> > >had grown tremendously in power and prestige since the BlackDeath
> > >nearly destroyed Norway roughly two centuries earlier. West Norseoutlying
> > >(the original language) as a living language was dead in most of
> > >southern Norway by the reformation. Those who still spoke it were
> > >looked down on by the gentile 'upper' classes, who spoke
> the 'educa-
> > >ted' 'book'-language of the Danes, who were then in charge of the
> > >country. There were few schools, especially in the poorer
> > >areas where the language was still descended from Norse ratherclose
> than
> > >Modern Danish. While the Black Death left Norway reeling and
> > >to linguistic extinction, it was the reformation that deliveredDanish
> the
> > >death-blow to Norse in Norway. The fatal decision was made by the
> > >wealthy ruling elite in the south of the country - it was a
> decision
> > >made purely in their own self-interest (they could not understand
> > >the Norse language), a decision which would later greatly anger
> the
> > >rural population of their country after indepence, a decision
> which
> > >would damn their own country to linguistic extinction - the
> > >Bible. Yes, that´s right - the Danish Bible and the thousands ofSunday
> > >Biblical tracts and commentaries printed and disributed to every
> > >home in the Danish language. The Danish Bible - read every
> atunderstand.
> > >church, every day at home. Did they have a choice? Yes, they did.
> > >They had a choice and they made the wrong decision - they chose
> the
> > >Bible only they could read (the fancy 'bokmål' one) over the one
> the
> > >rest of their impoverished countrymen would be able to
> > >They rejected the excellent New Testament translation made byHe
> Oddur
> > >Gottskálsson into Norse, which became the basis for all of the
> later
> > >Icelandic versions. Oddur was 1/2 Norwegian and 1/2 Icelandic -
> and,
> > >most importantly, he offered both countries his translation (more
> > >correctly, others did his bidding for him). Oddur translated the
> New
> > >Testament into Norse secretly as he laboured away secretly night
> > >after night in a 'fjós' (Norse for 'cow-house', older 'féhús').
> > >had to hide his work from the Bishop of Skálholt - fourtunatelyhapping
> for
> > >Oddur, the bishop was old and going blind. To this day, Norway is
> > >the only Scandinavian country not to have a Bible in its
> language -
> > >for this we have the Danish-speaking ruling class to thank, a
> class
> > >which did not care for the welfare and education of their
> countrymen
> > >until long after independence from Denmark. Truely, they still
> don´t
> > >care - they never have. Only Ireland lost a higher percetage of
> its
> > >native population than Norway to the United States and Canada.
> Why?
> > >Need we ask? Their ARE real West Norse words for what was
> ina
> > >Norway from the Black Death (svarti dauðinn) down to our times -
> > >few are 'lénsmennska', 'lénsríki' and 'lénssjórn'. There is ahave
> class
> > >of cold and cruel robber-barons in every Scandinavian country
> (there
> > >is no exception to this rule), but in no Scandinavian country
> > >they committed worse crimes against their own countrymen than innow
> Nor-
> > >way. I have heard it said 'they should have been hung for
> treason'.
> > >Without taking sides on the issue of capital punishment, I will
> say
> > >that I am firmly opposed to their plans for the 'Norwegian'
> language.
> > >
> > >Oddur Gottskálksson þýddi - en honum enginn hlýddi
> > >
> > >Kveðja,
> > >Konráð.
> > >
> > >P.S. I once recall hearing a rather well-educated Norwegian woman
> > >complain about all of the mideaval Norwegian art and valuables
> > >sitting in Danish Museums. I told her, 'One can take a ferry andI
> > >visit friends and museums in Denmark - one cannot take a ferry to
> > >visit the language of Norway'. As she obviously had no clue what
> > >was even talking about, I informed her that Norwegians can nowoperation
> stop
> > >blaming the Danes - nothing happened without the full co-
> > >of the self-interested and guilty in back home in Norway.leading
> > >
> > >Ask any educated Icelander and you will likely receive a similar
> > >answer about what went on in Iceland during the long years
> > >up to independence - 'you know, connections, money to be made,
> etc.'
> > >
> > >May we have happier Nordic tides in years to come.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Konrad.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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