Hi Thomas:
Well, I guess my "Duden" (1984) is not the latest then :)

betshalom wrote:

>Thank you for your help.
>
>By the way for those with a recent Auflage of Duden Grammatik the
>reference herein have been moved to §1293 No. 7 (also see §1305). Nu,
>das ist genug Deutsch! Ich bin hier um nur Altnorwegisch-
>Altisländische zu lernen. Nu, ek em hér að lære aldenorsk. (Something
>like that, I'm only on lesson 4 you see).

We used to call it "gamalnorsk". But now they usually say "norrønt".
Also "oldnorsk". BTW, I just discovered a funny ON word in the dictionary:
"o,ldungasveit" = the ON name of the Roman senate! :)))

BTW, I think I made an error in what I wrote yesterday (see below ===>>).
What I realized as I was looking for examples, is that a lot
of such constructions, even if they are grammatically correct,
aren't used very much in daily speech. It is therefore in fact
difficult to always give correct examples, even in my own language.
When it comes to English, it might be even worse!

>--- In norse_course@..., keth@... wrote:

>> "Ek sá hana ríða í aptansól."

====>> ...here... <<====

>> "I saw her standing there.."

In this example - taken from the well known Beatles song -
and which for that reason is probably the best way to say
it in English, there is no infinitive used. And so it
isn't a very good example at all! 'her' is all right as
an accusative, though (she/her = subject/object form);
but the verb "to stand" here obiously has the present
participle form. Now that is typically English, and I didn't
even think about it! That is because I hardly ever think
about grammar when I speak (or write).

In Norwegian it would, however, be:

"Jeg så henne stå der", (A)
and NOT "Jeg så henne stående der" (B)

In form (A) it is the infinitive that is used (å stå)
In form (B) it is the present participle. (A) is correct, not (B).
In Old Norse the corresponding example presumably is:

Ek sá hana standa þar (A')
Ek sá hana standandi þar (B')

My question then is, for those who have English as mother language:
Is it wrong to say "I saw her stand there" in English?
I certainly think (B') is incorrect Old Norse.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTW I now also think I found a (partial) solution to the question
you asked yesterday:


Here is the example:

"Opt hefi ek heyrt yðr þat mæla" (1)
{often have I heard you say this}

Then in example (1) there are two sentences.
The main sentence is "often have I heard you".
The subordinate sentence is "you say this".
In (1) "yðr" (you) is an accusative and "mæla" (to say) is an infinitive.
Hence (1) is an example of the construction "accusative with infinitive".

According to OEH *) Old Norse allows the replacement of acc.w/inf.
by constructions with "at". This means that example (1) can *also*
be written as:

"Opt hefi ek heyrt at þér mælið þat" (2)

In example (2) the infinitive in (1) [mæla] has
been replaced by "at" + the 2nd plur. indicative present
of the same verb [mælið].

The english translation of (2) would be:
"Often have I heard, that you say this".

In (2) there is a greater degree of independence between the
principal and the subordinate clause. This independence is achieved
by wedging in the word "that" in English (="at" in Old Norse).
You also see that in (2) the pronoun used has the form "þér"
which is the nominative form. I think German would have
the two forms "Oft habe ich euch das sagen hören" and
"Oft habe ich gehört daß ihr das sagt."


Best regards
Keth


--------------------------
*) OEH = Odd Einar Haugen: Grunnbok i Norrønt språk.



P.S. See also the interesting article about "Ersatzinfinitiv"
in Duden: "Die Grammatik". (§ 318 in my edition)

>> Now that the problem has been posed, is it then illegal
>> to say in German "Ich sah sie dort beim Tisch sitzen"?
>> Yes, here I found a reference for that (Duden Grammatik,
>> §1217): No. 7. Akkusativ mit Infinitiv:
>> "Ich sah sie näher kommen."
>> "Sie ließen ihm gehen."
>> {I saw her coming closer/They let him go}

>> Ek sá hana koma náligri. / Þeir létu honom ganga.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>> "Sverð veit ek liggja í Sigarshólmi."(Helgakviða Hjo,rvarðssonar)
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Let us look at this last sentence, to see if we can obtain
>> an answer to your question, with the reservaton that when
>> it comes down to it, only a direct quote will do - which
>> I do not have at present.
>>
>> "Sverd vet jeg ligge på Seiersholmen."
>> "Schwert weiß ich liegen auf der Siegesinsel."
>> "A sword I know lie [laying] on Victory Isle."
>>
>> All three examples probably sound very poetic to the users
>> of the 3 languages. The English example is probably even wrong.
>> Better perhaps is "A sword I know that lieth on Victory Isle".
>>
>> In Norwegian, it would probably be a better (less of
>> 'high poetry') to say:
>>
>> "Jeg vet om et sverd som ligger på Seiersholmen."
>> (Ich weiß von einem Schwert, das auf der Siegesinsel liegt.)
>> {I know of a sword that lieth on Victory Isle.}
>>
>> The question now is whether this last construction can also
>> be used in Old Norse. But here, in lack of a direct quote,
>> one has to take recourse to construction. And then
>> the problem is (as always) that it really is impossible to
>> know if any one would ever have said it like that a thousand
>> years ago. Okay, here is my attempt at constructing a
>> "translation":
>>
>> "Ek veit til sverðs, þat er liggr í Sigarshólmi."
>>
>> I think Haukr or Eysteinn will be able to elucidate further,
>> and point out my [probable] errors in using ON,