Thank you for your help.

By the way for those with a recent Auflage of Duden Grammatik the
reference herein have been moved to §1293 No. 7 (also see §1305). Nu,
das ist genug Deutsch! Ich bin hier um nur Altnorwegisch-
Altisländische zu lernen. Nu, ek em hér að lære aldenorsk. (Something
like that, I'm only on lesson 4 you see).

--- In norse_course@..., keth@... wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
> I do not know the answer to your question - off hand.
> I would just have to go look for examples, I guess.
> All I can really do is compare with modern languages
> (Scandinavian). For example:
>
> "Jeg så henne ride i aftensol."
> { I saw her ride in [the] evening sun[light].}
> Then, in this example "ride" is the infinitive of
> the verb that means [horse]riding.
>
> What I do find in the grammar books, is that this kind of
> consruction has the technical name _accusative_with_infinitive_;
> and that might be useful to know for those who have grammar
> books, but do not know what subject to look under.
>
> "Ek sá hana ríða í aptansól."
>
> Many grammar books are however so brief that they don't
> mention it. But if it is mentioned you will usually
> find it in the chapter that discusses _syntax_.
>
> The reason why it is called _accusative_with_infinitive_
> is because, referring to the example, 'hana' is object
> of the main sentence (I saw *her). But the object of
> the first sentence is at the same time subject of the
> second sentence (*she rode in the evening sun).
> Thus we have the situation that a word is both
> subject and object at the same time. Apparently the
> language rules then say that this affects the form of
> the verb in the second sentence, which now has to be
> an infinitive. ('hana ríða', instead of 'hon ríðr/reið')
>
> For speakers of English all this must however be very
> natural. Here an example from modern lyrics:
>
> "I saw her standing there.."
>
> For German such constructions are apparently much more rare.
> Now that the problem has been posed, is it then illegal
> to say in German "Ich sah sie dort beim Tisch sitzen"?
> Yes, here I found a reference for that (Duden Grammatik,
> §1217): No. 7. Akkusativ mit Infinitiv:
> "Ich sah sie näher kommen."
> "Sie ließen ihm gehen."
> {I saw her coming closer/They let him go}
> In both examples the verbs in the second sentences (kommen/gehen)
> are in their infinitive forms, and the subjects of these verbs
> are both accusatives (sie/ihm).
>
> "Jeg så henne komme nærmere".
> "De lot ham gå".
>
> Ek sá hana koma náligri. / Þeir létu honom ganga.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Here are some real examples from ancient Norse texts
> (the foregoing were just constructed examples):
>
> "Sá þeir borg standa á vo,llum no,kkurum." (Snorra Edda)
> "Hvar sáttu brúði bíta hvassara" (Þrymskviða)
> "Opt hefi ek heyrt yðr þat mæla."(Heimskringla)
> "Sverð veit ek liggja í Sigarshólmi."(Helgakviða Hjo,rvarðssonar)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Let us look at this last sentence, to see if we can obtain
> an answer to your question, with the reservaton that when
> it comes down to it, only a direct quote will do - which
> I do not have at present.
>
> "Sverd vet jeg ligge på Seiersholmen."
> "Schwert weiß ich liegen auf der Siegesinsel."
> "A sword I know lie [laying] on Victory Isle."
>
> All three examples probably sound very poetic to the users
> of the 3 languages. The English example is probably even wrong.
> Better perhaps is "A sword I know that lieth on Victory Isle".
>
> In Norwegian, it would probably be a better (less of
> 'high poetry') to say:
>
> "Jeg vet om et sverd som ligger på Seiersholmen."
> (Ich weiß von einem Schwert, das auf der Siegesinsel liegt.)
> {I know of a sword that lieth on Victory Isle.}
>
> The question now is whether this last construction can also
> be used in Old Norse. But here, in lack of a direct quote,
> one has to take recourse to construction. And then
> the problem is (as always) that it really is impossible to
> know if any one would ever have said it like that a thousand
> years ago. Okay, here is my attempt at constructing a
> "translation":
>
> "Ek veit til sverðs, þat er liggr í Sigarshólmi."
>
> I think Haukr or Eysteinn will be able to elucidate further,
> and point out my [probable] errors in using ON, as well
> as finding further textual examples.
>
> Bless. Bless.
>
> Keth
>
>
>
>
> >Lesson 3:1.2 and Exercise 3:3.1
> >
> >From lesson 3:1.2
> >"This construction, usually with a main verb meaning to see,
watch,
> >hear, feel, sense, etc, indicates that the subject
sees/hears/senses
> >the object performing an action, which is put into the infinitive
> >form (without any marker). ON examples:
> >Ek sé Óláf konung koma. I see King Olaf come.
> >Vér sjám manninn kalla. We see the man shout.
> >Hann heyrir drauginn mæla. He hears the ghost speak."
> >
> >
> >I have a question as regards the absence of relative pronouns in
ON.
> >I compare this to, say, German's use of them. This is from lesson
3
> >(I'm new to ON). Please don´t respond about German's special use
of
> >similar ON constructions of fühlen, helfen, hören, and other
> >Ersatzinfinitiv statt 2. Partizip.
> >
> >
> >e.g. Ek sé mann taka ost. I see a man take(or taking) cheese.
> >
> >The German must needs have the relative pronoun.
> >Ich sehe einen Mann, der den Käse nimmt.
> >I see the man, who(that) takeS the cheese.
> >"Take" isn´t one of the verns that works in this construction like
> >those mentioned above: Ich sehe einen Mann den Käse taken.
> >
> >
> >Q: Is it possible to use a relative pronoun in ON: "Ek sé mann, er
> >tekr ost/er ost tekr." Most likely "já", but it never hurst to
ask.
> >
> >
> >Þakk,
> >Thomas (Anglo-Saxon Þakwra)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Sumir hafa kvæði...
> >...aðrir spakmæli.
> >
> >- Keth
> >
> >Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >norse_course-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
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