Re: Runes question

> I have a question related to the phonetic meaning of
> one of the runes. In the Elder Futhark it's called
> Algiz: \|/, in the Younger (Danish) - Yr: |
> | |
> | /|\

Yes.

> Both denote the same letter/sound: some sources say
> "z", the others - "R". "R" is always capitalized, I
> guess to differentiate it from "r" (Raido/Reid). So
> what does this mean?

It's really just a matter of taste whether you transcribe
it as 'R' or 'z'.

> I've never seen the letter "z" in
> any of the Old Norse texts

It actually does exist. In the manuscripts it is
used for 'ds', 'ts' or 'st' and in the standardised
spelling it's used to denote the loss of a dental.

firð-skr -> firzkr (fjord-ish)
hand-ski -> hanzki (glove, 'hand-thing')
veit-sla -> veizla (feast, 'grant-ing')

> But then, why do some authors state "z"
> as the corresponding letter?
>
> I noticed this when I was looking at "The Thieves"
> cartoon. The runic inscription on the ship's bow
> spelled "ormR", yet I remembered the z vs. R thing, so
> I figured I'd ask.

Oh yes :) Óskar's inscription is actually
anachronistic; he uses the óðal-rune for 'o'
but it was obsolete at the time of king Óláfr.

Anyway 'R' is a consonant only found in grammatic
endings in Proto-Norse and early Old Norse.
Let's look at the word 'hawk' for example:

Proto-Norse:

Singular
nom. *habukaR
acc. *habuka
dat. *habuke
gen. *habukas

Plural
nom. *habukoR
acc. *habuko
dat. *habukumR
gen. *habuka


Old Norse:

Singular
nom. haukR
acc. hauk
dat. hauki/hauke
gen. hauks

Plural
nom. haukaR
acc. hauka
dat. haukum
gen. hauka

Verb endings too:

eka *bariútu
þú bariútiR
sá bariútið

ek brýt
þú brýtR
hann brýtR

What we know about the phonetic value is the following:

* The same sound became an 's' in West-Germanic
(Old English for example) and East-Germanic (Gothic).

* The sound became an 'r' in Old Norse.

* The rune for 'R' is sometimes used "incorrectly"
for 'r'.

From this we can deduce that 'R' had a sound somewhere
'between' [s] and [r]. The candidate which, I believe,
is favored by linguists is the Czech r. I can't pronounce
it; find a Czech to do it :)

> Also, since this my first time writing to this list,
> I'd like to thank Haukur Þorgeirsson and Óskar
> Guðlaugsson for their work. For someone like me,
> without the time and finances to seek out proper Old
> Norse textbooks (I think there's only one still in
> print in English), this course is absolutely
> priceless.

Thank you. It's always encouraging to hear
something like this.

Best regards,
Haukur