Eysteinn,

I let this thread drift, because the book was, at least, somewhat
about language, and since I hadn't read it, I wasn't sure how
relevant it might be.

Also, your comments in particular were indeed about language use,
as you point out. Which was the other reason I had left the thread
alone.

However, as you yourself at least implied, the thread had also drifted
into discussion of theosophy and other concepts which were doubtless
foreign to Old Norse speakers ... and in any case don't belong on this
list.

So I tried to call a halt to the thread, primarily reacting to Frank's
posting, which didn't say anything about language that I could see.

That's all. No wish to expel people from the list, or get you to stop
posting here. Just a wish to get rid of this thread, or at least drag
it forcefully back on topic. Both you and Steven have had plenty of useful
things to say on other topics, and I'm sure Frank will too; I don't want
to get rid of any of you.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:45:22PM -0000, Eysteinn Bjornsson wrote:
>
> To the esteemed moderator, and the list:
>
> I am not aware of having discussed the above-mentioned
> book, and in fact I had never heard of it until a few days
> ago. In fact I haven't discussed *anything* - I simply
> responded to a post on the list, because obviously
> it contained many errors, which were completely linguistic
> and lexicographical in nature. I did this because I am fully
> aware that this is a language list, and that there are many
> beginners present, who are easily confused by erroneous statements
> of the kind found in the post I responded to. It was not my
> intention to irritate the moderator. My comments were purely
> linguistic, and intended as a warning to beginners against the
> dangerous (but far too common) practice of over-interpreting
> words in Old Norse poetic texts. These over-interpretations
> were posted by Mr Hatton as derived from Green's book, and I
> simply took his word for it. Personally I couldn't care less
> whose over-interpretations they are. They are simply wrong,
> and I pointed this out on the list, so that members might beware.
>
> The moderator is obviously not very happy about this, and
> has politely asked me to take my comments and my opinions
> to another list. Since I am loath to sow any bad seeds in
> the fertile academic soil of this educational newsgroup, I
> will of course obey the moderator, who has actually objected
> to my presence here before, after which objection I left it.
>
> I think I should, however, point out to the moderator, that
> I am on this list, because Haukur, the owner, subscribed me
> here himself (after I had left it), and that this is the only
> reason I am here in the first place. Haukur is in possession
> of both my user name and my password, and can subscribe and
> unsubscribe me any time he wishes. I will therefore leave it
> to his discretion to decide whether he feels my comments
> are improper and unwanted here. If he does, he can unsubscribe
> me as easily as he subscribed me in the first place. But of
> course I will obey the moderator, and keep my mouth shut in
> the future, unless directly addressed, like a good dog. No
> "barking in front of the Gnipa-cavern" from me. Mum's the
> word, and the moderator's words are my command.
>
> Below, I have reposted my comments on Mr Hatton's post, so
> that anyone can decide for themselves if my comments were
> irrelevant on a list dedicated to the teaching, learning and
> understanding of the Old Norse/Old Icelandic language. I have
> added comments [in square brackets] in order to clarify my
> original comments to those who may not have read Mr Hatton's
> original.
>
> ...........................................................
>
> From: "Eysteinn Bjornsson" <eysteinn@...>
> Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 8:27 pm
> Subject: Re: Germanic Religious Terms
>
> Just a few observations that popped up as I read through
> your page:
>
> "God of Men" does not equal "God of Masculinity".
> That is an unwarranted over-interpretaion.
>
> [This refers to the name VERATÝR "God of Men" - I had
> pointed out that the word VERR was related to the Latin
> "vir", and therefore the English "virile", and Mr
> Hatton chose to interpret this wrongly. In fact, the
> name VERATÝR holds no implications of masculinity or
> virility. It simply means "God of Men", i.e. god of
> humans.]
>
> The plural of Áss is Æsir (AEsir).
>
> [Purely linguistic.]
>
> Tívar is used as a term for gods in various places,
> e.g. Grímnismál 5, Hymiskviða 4, Haustlöng 1, 3,
> Þrymskviða 14, Baldurs draumar 1, Vafþrúðnismál
> 38, 42, Hávamál 159.
>
> [Purely lexicographical.]
>
> Shy father is, a hope, simply a typo ;-)
>
> [Admittedly a bit of comic relief...]
>
> "Goþ" (sic) is spelled "goð" using normalized orthography.
>
> [Orthographic comment.]
>
> Divinity, yes, - also Deity.
>
> [Semantic - this was about the best English term
> to express the meaning of ON "goð".]
>
> I don't think the concept "collective plural" is logical.
> The term "collective" is used in ON grammar, when a singular
> word is used to refer to a plurality, e.g. eik (sing) "oak",
> eikr (pl) "oaks", but eiki (sing collective) "oaks".
>
> [As purely linguistic as humanly possible, although perhaps
> not for the beginner. But surely of interest to those who
> have advanced slightly beyond the subject-verb-object stage?]
>
> "Uncountable substance" is ridiculous. The word "goð" is
> quite an ordinary neuter noun, which simply happens to look
> the same in the plural nominative. The word declines
> goð-goð-goði-goðs in the singular, goð-goð-goðum-goða
> in the plural. There is nothing mysterious about it,
> it does not refer to a realm, it always refers to a
> "personality". The theological ideas in this paragraph
> are far removed from any linguistic reality. Who is this
> Green anyway? Sounds like a theosophist to me - shades
> of Madame Blavatsky....
>
> [As far as I am concerned this is pure grammar and linguistic
> semantics. It is disastrous to inject such theosophical
> ideas into ON religious words, and in this case it was done
> by means of a terrible misinterpretation of the grammar, i.e.
> the completely erroneous idea that there is a mystical
> implication to be derived from the fact that a word has the
> same form in the singular and the plural (as does GOÐ). Note
> also that I obviously had no idea who "Green" is/was, and simply
> took Mr Hatton's words to be the truth, i.e. that the ideology
> was Green's - simply because it doesn't matter to me whose it
> was, as long as it was wrong.]
>
> "The collective Council of the Ásir is itself a Divine
> Entity" is a nonsensical statement, at least in terms
> of the Old Germanic/Norse pantheon.
>
> [This is simply a continuation of the above-mentioned
> misinterpretation, i.e. "singular as plural". See also
> the comments on EIKI above. We are still completely
> within the realm of grammar/linguistics, and the matter of
> correct interpretation of ON words and phrases.]
>
> Although it is an interesting intellectual exercise to
> differentiate the various terms, tívar, regin, bönd, etc.
> like this, it would be a dangerous mistake to imagine
> that the terms were strictly differentiated. It can even
> be stated with complete assurance that all these terms were
> no more than vague synonyms of each other as used in Old
> Icelandic poetry. In many (or most) cases the poet would
> simply pick the term that suited the metrical structures
> he was working with. Examples:
>
> Bdr 1: Senn vóru æsir ('æsir' alliterates with 'allir')
> allir á þingi
> ...
> ...
> ok um þat réðu ('tívar' fullfils a need for a long
> ríkir tívar vowel + a short vowel, and 'æsir'
> has already been used ...)
>
> Hvm 159: telja tíva fyrir (alliteration: telja-tíva)
>
> Vþm 38: segðu þat it tíunda (alliteration: tíunda-tíva)
> alls þú tíva rök
>
> Vþm 42: segðu þat it tólfta (alliteration: tólfta-tíva)
> hví þú tíva rök
>
> Grm 4: unz um rjúfask regin (alliteration: rjúfask-regin)
>
> Grm 5: tívar at tannfé (alliteration: tívar-tannfé)
>
> There are dozen, if not hundreds of such examples.
>
> [I spent considerable time locating these examples, thinking
> they would be most instructional to the members who are
> studying my native language in order to be able to better
> understand Eddaic poetry and prose. The moderator clearly
> does not belong to this group, and will have no such
> "discussions" on "her" list. I can only grovel, and beg
> everybody's pardon for subjecting them to this gibberish.
> Does anybody know about another list where people are
> interested in such material, where I won't be disturbing
> the rest of the members' learned on-topic discussions about
> Old Norse computer programming?]
>
> Kveðja
> Eysteinn
>
> [Hinzta kveðja
> Eysteinn]
>
>
>
>
>
> Sumir hafa kvæði...
> ...aðrir spakmæli.
>
> - Keth
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
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>
>
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>

--
Arlie

(Arlie Stephens arlie@...)