Hi StaveRunner!
Well, the difficulty really is how to make a start.
I think Gordon's advivce about the immportance of
learning to read texts, and not focus so much on
translation is sound. But Old Norse being a dead language
is especially difficult. Also the complex morphology
is a real difficulty. So I don't really have any good advice
except to keep at it. Two hours each day for a couple of years
would probably help. The problem is that many work hard for a month
or two, and then they are exhausted and take a long break - too long.
If you already knew Latin, that sure would help. But that's another very
long project. And it only prepares you for working with that kind
of grammar. If you already know Old Norse grammar real well, then
it is much easier to learn a number of other grammars, such as German
or Old English etc.. Are you English? Maybe a year of Old English
would then be the right thing for you. If you know Old English really
well, then Old Norse is much easier to read.
How about going backwards in time? First read everything by Shakespeare
(use 6 months), then read everything from Canterbury tales (another
6 months?) and then select older and older litterature, until
you arrive at Beowulf. When you can read Beowulf without problem
and also understand all the grammar, I am sure Old Norse (and Gordon)
would not be so difficult any longer.
But you want to have a go at Old Norse directly?
An old trick is to choose say 30 pages and then read it
over and over again until you know every word and every
grammatical detail in those 30 pages. When you are done
you will have reached a new level. But it is hard to
do on one's own. Much easier in a group. I don't know
if it would work on the internet. Everybody is doing things
at their own pace here. Too individualistic. No solidarity.
But the net is a great place to ask questions. Definite questions
about definite things.
Maybe the easiest thing to do would be to read Haukur and Óskar's
first 4 lessons and do all the excercises there. When you are done
you will know a great deal more, and you will have a different base
for making further decisions. Do you know where to download the lessons?
E.V.Gordon is not really a textbook. It is much more of a (brief)
reference book, combined with a reader. But the ON texts in it are
quite interesting. I'd simply select one of those texts and read it
slowly aloud to yourself several times to get a feel for it.
Something which is also nice, is an EXACT, i.e. word by word
translation of a given text. That is where people might actually
do some good work: make electronic editions available with
good translations that go with it. Did you see the text Eysteinn
posted last month? The one about Thorsteinn Boejarmagn?
It is a little mini saga, quite interesting, and without
all the genealogies that usually bog down students of the
more "traditional" students texts, such as the Gísla saga etc..
Eysteinn also posted an English translation in parallell.
That translation (by Hermann Pálsson) is good, but it is not
literal enough for learning purposes. (I think) So that is a
little drawback. Maybe if Arlie or someone wrote a more
word by word translation, then that would be very useful,
because then it could be used as basic text for the group.
>Thanks for the response. I use Old Norse by E. V.
>Gordon, 2nd edition. The pronunciation key is on p.
>266. I have trouble on those lines that have French
>and German words (instead of English) for the
>pronunciation example. Edred Thorsson (aka. Dr.
>Stephen Flowers) has some helpful stuff in his
>FUTHARK: A HANDBOOK OF RUNE MAGIC, but even he uses
Thorsson might be useful if it is correct. But I haven't
seen that book. It doesn't seem like the kind of book
one would choose for normal language learning.
I think everything you need to know is already in Gordon.
And the little things you need to know to get started there,
are probably quite easy to learn by asking on the net.
>German. I lived for a total of six years in Germany,
>and took college classes in German, but never mastered
>all the umlatt vowels. But at least I've heard the
>German. I am totally clueless on what French is
>supposed to sound like.
If you had known the German vowels it would have been a great
help for you. I know opera singers are good with vowels.
Maybe you should contact an opera singer nearby where you
live for private lessons. Ask if she can sing German and Italian opera.
If she can, she can probably be of great help with the vowels.
It might be a bit expensive. But maybe 5 or 6 lessons with
proper homework would make you an expert on vowels!
(singing them is not a bad idea at all)
>
>Specifically, in the Grammar, part 1, section 5
>(vowels).
GOT IT !!!! (that's great. you seem to have the same book
I have. Mine is 2nd edition, 1957. How about yours?)
Page 266:
Well there you see a list of all the vowels.
As you see, there are 22 different vowels.
The right column would then be the vowels by means of the [PHONETIC ALPHABET].
(check that)
Now look at the 3 last ones. They are [9u], [3i] and [3y].
(can't do it much different. The 3 should have been mirror-reversed,
and the 9 without the upper curl)
Now these 3 are DIPHTONGS becayse they are represented by TWO phonetic
symbols in sequence. But the first 19 are normal vowels. Not diphtongs
but monophtongs. (if you are uncertain about such technical terms, try
looking them up in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. This is just a suggestion,
since I don't know how much you know)
Now note another thing: Among the 19 monophtongs there are 9 that end with
a colon. They are [a:], [e:], [æ:] etc..
These are the LONG vowels.
The two dots or colon, means that it is a long sound (=drawn out in time).
The other ones, the 10 that don't have the colon inside the square barckets
are the normal, or SHORT vowels. They are [a], [e], [3], etc..
(see the table now)
The simple rule now is that once you know how to pronounce
a short vowel, you automatically know how to pronounce the long one.
Thus, if you can pronounce [a], then you can also pronounce [a:].
It's as simple as that.
Now for the short "a" (=[a]), they've used the German word "Mann"
(=English "a man"). Presumably because this short "a" isn't so easy to find
in English. But for the long "a" (=[a:]) they've used the English word
"father" as model. That is, the "a" in father. So if you can say
"father" in English, you know how to say the [a:], i.e. the long "a".
Now for the [a], or short "a", all you need to do is to imagine that you
are in a hurry and have to speak very fast, Then that's the short "a".
It isn't more difficult like that.
But I agree that Gordon uses far too many French and German examples there.
Let me see if my "American Heritage Dictionary" is of help.
I always found it extremely useful, because there is a phonetic key at the
bottom of each page.
YES! It was useful. I found the short "e" there.
Look in Gordon page 266. The third one from the top of the table is [e].
This sound I think I found in English "item" (3rd letter)
But I see already that it is not going to be easy to go through the whole
table this way. And so I think you ALSO ought to learn about
mouth and tongue positions.
There are 3 positions of the mouth:
1. let your chin drop and say the "a" in father. This is [a:] as
explained above. Now try to pronounce the [a] in the ame way,
holding chin and tongue in the same position as for [a:]
only make a briefer sound. That is [a].
2. Now move the chin upwards without moving the tongue.
You will the find the two sounds [e] and [e:]
when the chin is in an intermediate position.
3. Now move your chin further up, so that a small opening remains
between tongue and the upper vault of your mouth.
If you haven't moved your tongue, which should now be lying
flat at rest in the lower part of your mouth, then you
will now find the sounds [i] and [i:].
Check this with Gordon page 266:
[i] = fini (F.), but Am.Her.Dict. gives lid, thin, with, this.
That is the [i]. Now check the position of chin tongue and
lips as you say [i]. The lips should be fairly straight for [i].
The corners of the mouth are slightly drawn out. (some tension)
Once you know the [i], the [i:] is real easy, because you just
make the same sound but of longer duration.
Check with Gordon page 266: [i:]= rire (F.) Am.Her. gives "pier".
Okay so now you know about the 3 positions of the chin
and how to say [a], [a:], [e], [e:], [i] and [i:].
The next thing to go into, would be how to vary these 3 basic sounds
by only varying the position of the tongue (3 positions)
and the also various degrees of rounding the lips.
Let us say chin, tongue and lips had 3 distinct positions
each, then the different combinations readily give you
2 x 3 x 3 = 27 different vowels !
Well we won't be needing quite as many.
But I think this systematic aprroach is a very useful one.
I have seen it in many books on Old Norse.
It is important for Old Norse.
(but somehow it is not in Gordon)
(Gordon simply is way too brief; it clearly isn't a textbook
but rather a (short) grammar reference book)
>First question for the list:
>
>What's the difference between [a] as in mann (G.) and
>[a:] as in father (E.)? I always said them more or
>less the same, when I lived in Germany.
Hope I answered some of your questions.
Best regards
Keth
>
>If anyone on the list can aswer that "frage", then
>thanks!
>
>StaveRunner
>
>
>
>--- keth@... wrote:
>> Hi Stave Runner !
>> I also have EVGORDON (finally!!) ;)
>>
>> >I am a beginner, and what I need is a computer file
>> or
>> >cassette that tells me audibly how to pronounce
>> this
>> >stuff. I find the written pronunciation guides in
>> the
>> >books to be inadequate. I use AN INTRODUCTION TO
>> OLD
>> >NORSE by E. V. Gordon. Any suggestions?
>>
>> Yes, tell me the page number of the pronounciateion
>> in EV Gordon
>> and also the section no. on case I have a different
>> edition.
>> And then go down the page to the first letter that
>> gives you problems.
>> Then ask the list how to pronounce it.
>> I'm sure you'll receive lot's of help.
>> I know Oscar always used to say that we should get
>> ourselves a book
>> with the phonetic alphabet in it. Well maybe we can
>> use that, if
>> you have access to a book like that.
>>
>> The point is that it is all very simple, really:
>> Each letter in ON represents a different sound.
>> And so you simply have to start from the beginning
>> and memorize the sound of each letter.
>> One thing that is really efficient is if you write
>> all the information that is relevant to the
>> pronounciation
>> of a single letter on a piece of paper, and then you
>> go for
>> a walk a couple of miles. Just repeat the sound of
>> the letter
>> over and over again while you walk. Then it will
>> stick in
>> your memory. That is all there is to it really:
>> 1. Each letter a different sound.
>> 2. Thoroughly memorize the sounds one by one.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Keth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >StaveRunner
>> >
>> >___________________________________________
>> >--- Arlie Stephens <arlie@...> wrote:
>> >> What do people want from this list? Can it be
>> more
>> >> useful than just a place
>> >> to ask questions when you find yourself stumped
>> on
>> >> some translation?
>> >>
>> >> Well, one thing I think we could do is work on
>> >> things in parallel. That is,
>> >> have everyone interested working on the same
>> >> translation at the same time,
>> >> and discussing their results and progress. The
>> >> advantage here is that you
>> >> get feedback on your efforts, without needing to
>> >> have someone more experienced
>> >> available to act as teacher, and overloaded with
>> the
>> >> task of correcting
>> >> the exercises of many students. And you get to
>> see
>> >> others' answers, and
>> >> think about whether you like their approach
>> better.
>> >> (Since there are generally
>> >> several options in translating anything.)
>> >>
>> >> The problem, of course, is finding an accessible
>> >> text to work on. It should
>> >> be something reasonably accessible to people with
>> >> fairly little ON background;
>> >> ideally, simply having finished the already
>> >> completed lessons. It shouldn't
>> >> be too well known, lest we know what to expect
>> >> already, and "translate" based
>> >> on that expectation. And there should be
>> >> translations available, so when
>> >> we do get stumped (or simply think we've
>> translated
>> >> a passage successfully),
>> >> we can find out how someone with more experience
>> >> would have translated it.
>> >>
>> >> For me personally, Hreiïar's Þ
ttr meets these
>> >> requirements. The ON text is
>> >> available from the Viking Society in Anthony
>> >> Faulkes' "Two Icelandic Stories",
>> >> complete with a vocabulary list. There's a
>> >> translation available in Penguin's
>> >> "Hrafnkel's Saga and Other Stories" by Hermann
>> >> P
lsson. The prose is fairly
>> >> simple, and it's obscure enough that the average
>> >> person interested in ON
>> >> doesn't have it already half memorized.
>> >>
>> >> On the bad side, I don't see an online source of
>> >> this particular story. (I'm
>> >> not sure what resources people have.) Personally,
>> I
>> >> like the Viking Society
>> >> publications better than online texts, because of
>> >> the glossaries included;
>> >> however that's less important now with Zoega's
>> >> dictionary available online.
>> >>
>> >> Would other people find it useful to work on
>> >> translating this in parallel,
>> >> all working at a similar pace and posting
>> results?
>> >> Would it also help to have
>> >> each week's portion of ON posted to the list at
>> the
>> >> beginning of the week?
>> >> (Or would people mostly rather just get the
>> printed
>> >> version?) Would a different
>> >> text be better, perhaps something already
>> available
>> >> on line? (If so, what?
>> >> My vote would be to avoid poetry, and stick with
>> >> fairly easy writing; other
>> >> than that, I'm pretty flexible.) What sort of
>> pace
>> >> makes sense?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Arlie
>> >>
>> >> (Arlie Stephens
>>
>> >> arlie@...)
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >__________________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>> >Sumir hafa kv ïi...
>> >...aïrir spakm li.
>> >
>> >- Keth
>> >
>> >Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>> >
>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> >norse_course-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
>
>
>Sumir hafa kvÊi...
>...arir spakmÊli.
>
>- Keth
>
>Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>norse_course-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/