Hollau William!

First you have to remember that the masc. gen. is usually formed
by removing the nom. sg. -r and replacing by an -s.

After reading your post on one of the other lists, I did a little more
reading concerning this particular verse. First of all, let it be known
that there are lots of problems with this verse. Both the Cod.Reg. and
the Ms. 748 do not include the phrase "Hymir kvaþ:", which means that
you don't really know who is speaking. (Hymir or Thor) Nevertheless,
most authors seem to agree that it *is* Hymir who speaks.

Next comes the question about a possible lacuna. The reason for
a suspected lacuna is the suddenness with which the situation changes :
suddenly they are in a boat, right after Thor has gone to fetch his bait
(the head of a bull). There is no account of their boarding the ship,
etc. Depending on whether you think there is a lacuna somewhere near
verse 19, you arrive at different conclusions concerning the text.
Also, if you asume the presence of a lacuna, you still don't know
*where* the lacuna is situated. Depending on where you assume it
is situated, you again reach different conclusions. But I will not
attempt to go into the details, since it will only serve to increase the
confusion. A look at the grammar, as you suggest, is actually a much better
idea.

>Could you comment on the grammatical complexties of the phrase kjóla valdi
>in Hymirskvida 19?

There are two words here. Both can derive from two slightly different
words, so that there are 4 possibilities in all. First look at "kjóla".
It could relate to both "kjóll" (m.) and "kjo,lr" (m.), where the
first word means "ship" and the second "keel". Then look at "valdi".
It could relate to both "valdr" (m.) and "valdi" (m.). Her the second
is the same as "valdari" (m.). The first means "governor", "ruler" and
the second "governor" or "owner".

"kjo,lr" (m.), I am told, is an u-stem and declines as "fjo,rðr" (m.);
hence we have:

Sg. 1. kjo,lr Pl. kilir
2. kjalar kjala
3. kili kjo,lum
4. kjo,l kjo,lu

where the absence of the sought form "kjóla" is apparent.
Hence the meaning cannot be "keel" and we must settle for the word
"kjóll" (m.) that means "ship", which is not listed in the standard
vocabularies. However, if I assume an assimilated final -r (-lr -> -ll),
I shall be able to relate it to a strong masc. a-type:

Sg. 1. kjóll Pl. kjólar
2. kjóls kjóla
3. kjól kjo,lum
4. kjól kjóla

Here we see the sought form "kjóla" occur as the pl. gen., which must
be the correct answer.

"valdr" (m.) I cannot find either, but again I assume the masc. a-type,
like "aldr" (m.), which gives:

Sg. 1. valdr Pl. valdar
2. valds valda
3. valdi vo,ldum
4. vald valda

Here you see the sought form "valdi" realized as the sg. dat.
However, if the alternative is "valdi" (m.), then, using the tip
that this derives from the 3-syllabic "valdari" and is itself
2-syllabic, we see that we may consider "dómari" (m.) or "bani" (m.)
as model, and we arrive at the weak scheme:

Sg. 1. valdi Pl. valdar
2. valda valda
3. valda vo,ldum
4. valda valda

Here we find the sought form "valdi" realized as the nom. sg. case.

Conclusion : We are left with two possible interpretations of
------------ "kjóla valdi". *Either* it is the sg. dat. of
"kjóla valdr" (=the governor of ships), *or* it is the sg. nom.
of "kjóla valdi" (=the owner of ships). In both cases we are not
dealing with a single ship (the ship being rowed), but more generally
with several ships. The first alternative could then refer to a
kind of "ruler of all ships", i.e. perhaps a kind of "god of shipping",
the second alternative could simply point to Hymir, who may be considered
as the owner of several fishing boats, one of which is being used now.

But of course, the interpretation of "kjóla valdi" also has to fit in
with the meaning of rest of the stanza. I now hope that someone more
knowledgable than I, will correct me if I somehow chose an incorrect
declination scheme, or if the method used can be improved in some way.

With best regards
Keth


P.S. The usual interpretation of the stanza does seem to leave something
to be desired. I can imagine that Hymir tested how well Thor could row.
But he found the boat rocked so much while Thor was rowing that he became
scared. Of course, Thor was perfectly capable of rowing straight, but
in this particular case he made a point of rowing so hard, that even Hymir
got scared shitless. Hymir therefore requests that he'd better take a break
now, "and sit quitly in the boat" (don't rock the boat as the American
saying goes - "sitja kyrr", means to sit quietly). Such an interpretation
I would consider more satisfactory.

>There is a vast difference between the Icelandic and English scholarship on
>the meaning of this phrase. Recently, German & English scholarship has
>attempted to use this passage to demonstrate that Thor was actually a
>sea-god, a "Lord of Ships". There seems to be some confusion among Asatruar
>about what the correct interpretation is. Could you speak on this?
>
>In Hymiskviða 19, the giant Hymir, on a fishing expedition with Thor, says:
>
>"Verk þykja þín
>verri miklu
>kjóla valdi ..."
>
>English scholars have variously translated the phrase "kjóla valdi" as:
>
>"navigator" (Cottle)
>"lord of keels" (Thorpe)
>"Boatman" (Vigfusson)
> "steerer of ships" (Hollander)
> "lord of the sea" (Terry)
> "lord of keels" (Motz)
> "master of the ships" (LaFarge/Tucker)
> "steersman of ships" (Larrington)
>
>All are in agreement that the giant Hymir refers to Thor as a god of ships.
>
>For example, Larrington writes:
>
>"Your deed seems much worse, steersman of ships, than if you had sat
>quietly".
>
>However the Icelandic scholars have a quite different view. They see this
>phrase as referring to Hymir as a ship-owner, rather than to Thor as the
>"god of ships".
>
>The most recent edition in Icelandic (Gísli Sigurðsson, 1998), in his
>comments on this verse, loosely translated from Icelandic reads:
>
>"Hymir is the speaker in the second half of the stanza. Kjóla valdr -
>steersman of ships, i.e. Hymir himself"
>
>The commentary from the edition of Ólafur Briem (1985), similarily
>translated, also supports this view:
>
>"kjóla valdur: steersman of a ship; can only refer to Hymir himself."
>
>Guðni Jónsson, in Eddulyklar (1954), under kjóll, writes:
>
>"kjóla valdr: skipstjórnarmaður, stýrimaður (um Hymi), Hym. 19." --or--
>"kjóla valdr: captain of a ship, steersman (of Hymir)"
>
>
>This is further supported by the Lexicon Poeticum of Sveinbjörn Egilsson,
>edited by Finnur Jónsson. Under kjóll, the Lexicon Poeticum says:
>
>"kjóla valdr, skib-ejer, om jætten Hymir, Hym. 19. ---or---
>"kjóla valdr: ship-owner, referring to the giant Hymir."
>
>Thus the Icelandic scholars all seem to agree that the half-stanza means:
>
>"Your deeds seem
>much worse
>to the ship-owner ..."
>
>or more plainly...
>
>"Your deeds seem
>much worse
>to me (Hymir)...."
>
>By "kjóla valdr" they understand Hymir to be referring to himself, the
>owner of the ship, not to Thor at all. This of course is the exact
>opposite opinion of the English scholars. I assume that the Icelandic
>scholars are correct in this matter, as native speakers of the language.
>But, why might *all* of the English scholars have gotten this wrong? When
>looking into this matter, I expected that at least one would have gotten it
>right, but so far, I haven't found a single English translation that
>interprets this phrase to mean Hymir as the ship-owner. Odd, isn't it?
>
>I bring it to you, as it might make an interesting lesson, on the
>complexities of translating Icelandic, as well as enlighten the people who
>are firm in their belief that it can only mean "God of Ships" since so many
>of our English-speaking scholars say it does.
>
>Wassail, William
>
>
>
>
>"The art of poetry is implication"
>Cecil Wood, Germanic Review v. 33, no. 4, Dec. 1958.
>
>Sumir hafa kvæði...
>...aðrir spakmæli.
>
>- Keth
>
>Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
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