From: Grzegorz Jagodziński
Message: 71806
Date: 2014-10-01
In my Greek dictionary (i.e. the one I use ;-) ) it reads (in translation from my mother tongue):
>
Beekes links the Greek etymon in question with Arm. sut (a-stem) [adj.] 'false', [subst.] 'lie' (both with PIE *-d-, not *-t-).
In my notes I have it as sut (o-stem), with the guy trying to directly link:
psúdos = lie G; sut -o- = false / lie Ar;
Do you know which is right? There are a lot of variants in Arm., which is earlier?
pseũdos, eos (tó) I. (subst.) 1. lie, fabrication, untruth, 2. false conclusion, 3. pseudoscience, false knowledge, II. (as adj.) false, untrue
psydrós, á, ón deceitful, hypocritical
psýthos, eos (tó) poet. = pseũdos
(to cite the most important, there are plenty of compositions as well with pseudo-, and the verb pseúdō)
On Armenian, I do not feel to be good enough to help.
Oh, and I thought I am the only one who votes against only regular changes in language :-)>
We have also some forms in Slavic (like Pol. szydzić "to sneer, to scoff", szyderstwo "mockery") which could suggest PIE *kWseud- even if some details of the phonological development are unclear in this case: Pol. szyd- < PSlav. *šid- < *xjūd- < *kWsyud- (Winter's rule) rather than *kWsud-.
What would create PSlav. *šid- < *xjūd- < *kWsyud-? So, if (as I take it) in your mind, there's really supposed to be an extra -y- added just to make the phonological development regular, wouldn't analogy work better?
Of course you may be right: *kWseud- > šud- may be regular, while šid- instead of **xyd- may be a product of phonemical levelling. Btw., there is a number of "dark" words containing -iū- or -iu- in Baltic (in Lithuanian spelling) which may have originated from eu/ou/u pattern, cf. Lith. žiūrė'ti and Slavic (OCS) zьrěti, both meaning "to look".If there were at first no differences between:
szydzicJ and
s^uditJ = deceive Slovak;
a (now lost) alt. as in:
pseûdos \ psúdos \ psúthos (neu) = lie G;
could have created eud > ud AND ud > u:d > yd with later mixing of C / C', right?
You are right, sorry and thanks. I must have been tired...>
On the other hand, we have Russian šut, šutka "a joke" with unclear etymology (see Vasmer for details). Perhaps it could be a cognate of the cited Albanian forms rather than the Greek ones (if they are heredited at all). In this case šut- < *xeut- < *kWseut-
The etymology is not unclear, or rather is as clear as many others taken as cognates, assuming optionality (see below). I'd say they're inherited (not "heredited" (I just pointed this out to keep any other non-native speakers from confusion, not because I feel like correcting every typo or calling people out on them))
The word you cite is onomatopaeic (contrary to some (many?) etymologists, I think such words should also be a subject of etymological research) but there are numerous other examples, like:from IE, with Alb. later der. from a n/adj. lik: psudrós \ psudnós = lying / untrue G; or sim.
>
Note also Greek psythos ~ psydos, cf. Beekes. If Indo-European at all, the root may have had another variant *kWseudH- here.So, if you have any doubt about IE:
*kWseut- \ *kWseud- \ *kWseudH-
how about:
*kswist- \ *kswizd- \ *kswizdH-
or
*k(s)wei(s)t-
etc.
in
svistati = hiss OCS;
hwistlian = whistle/hiss OE; ks.vid.- \ ks.vid-, ks.ved.ana-m = hissing S;
si:bila:re L;
and many more.
Also, in:
hvískra = whisper, hvísla = whistle/whisper OIc; hwiscettan = squeak [of mice] OE;hvískra = whisper OIc; hwisprian = whisper/mumble/murmur OE; (h)wispalón = hiss OHG;
fishkëllej = whistle Alb;
there seems to be more l/r alt. (as in Alb. above, maybe in tR > tl / tt / etc.?).
and
seems to be the same stem, with both more l/r alt. and more P/KW alt. (which might be needed for *ps- > sut since ks > c^ in other Arm. words).
- Eng. worm < *wRmi- : Pol. czerw < *kWRwi- : Greek hélminth- < *Hwelmi-;
- Eng. fox < *puks- : Eng. faws < *pus- : Pol. lis < *leip(k)so- : Lith. lapė < *lopyā : Gr. alō'pēks, -ek- < *h2loHpek- : Lat. volpēs < *wLpei- : Skt. lopāka- and lopāśa- < *leupoHko- / *leupoHk'o- (both meaning "jackal");
- Eng. louse < *luHs- : Pol. wesz < *usi- : Lith. utė < *uti- : Skt. yūkā- < *yuHk-;
- Eng. yard and garden < *gHordH- : Ukrainian hórod "town" < *gHordH- (circumflex) and horód "garden" < *gHord- (acute because of Winter's), Lat. hortus "garden" (OldL. "villa"), Greek khórtos "fenced place" and "hay" (and some other, very divergent meanings) < *gHort- [a similar example with root-final t/d/dH exchanging]
I have an enough rich collection of examples with irregular development in Slavic, Romance and IE (and Semitic)... http://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/lingwen/niereg1.html (in constant development)
Grzegorz J.