dgkilday57 wrote:
> In reality, virtually in all German dialects within the "reich"
> (i.e. this is not valid in remote "isle"-like
> diaspora regions in East and South-East Europe)
> there is no "fixed" position of PTK vs BDG.
> They are actually interchangeable.
I would not generalize it that much, they are not interchangable in both
literary language and most dialects. There are different reasons of it, and
we should treat them all separately, otherwise there will be no order in the
analysis.
> This is especially valid in Upper German (Oberdeutsch) and
> Middle German (Mitteldeutsch) dialects.
Actually, standard German /b/, /g/ can yield /p/, /k/ in Upper German and
thus merge with the original /p/, /k/, of which /p/ can come only from
borrowings, and /k/ is possible only because the change k > ch was limited
both positionally and areally (k > ch occured mainly after an OHG vowel, and
also initially only in some parts of the Upper German area).
But the standard German /d/ (from IE *t first-shifted to *þ and next
second-shifted to d) can also yield /t/ like in Tausend or Traube (or
Teutsch). We could call it the Third Consonant Shift in fact. Naturally this
new /t/ has merged in anlaut (initially) with the original /t/ (from Gmc. *d
and IE *dh)
> Hence, Deutsch/Teutsch [...]
> Also note the alternance of the spellings for the 2nd names Borsche
> (a famous German movie actor of the 30s-40s-50s)
> and Porsche (the Austrian car maker and his designer nephew),
> both having the same old Slavic etymon Borislav
> and their onomastic kinship Boruta and Poruta/Paruta.);
When speaking of Slavic borrowings: Czech (or Sorbian) bič (also Polish
bicz) "whip" yielded German (Bavarian) Peitsche (however why -e and why die
Peitsche (feminine) as if it was from *biča?).
Dialects with initial p/b, t/d and k/g difference neutralised may have also
produced the spelling <b> where <p> would be expected. See Upper Sorbian
piskor (Polish piskorz) "species of fish, Misgurnus, a kind of loach" and
the local (dialectal) German loanwords Peitzker and Beitscher, Beißker,
Bißgurre.
> Fries and Vries; Vitzt(h)um and Fitzt(h)um
> (in many cases "abridged" as such: Fitz).
The f-/v- problem is totally different as it is clearly orthographic (from
synchronic point of view). First of all, regardless of spelling, both have
the same modern standard pronunciation [f] (while v means [v] only in
borrowings). Second, all f/v were f in OHG. Then many were spelt with v
(mostly herited words, while f- was in newer borrowings). Now some of them
are spelt with f again.
For example:
OHG fater > MHG vater > modern German Vater "father",
OHG faran > MHG varen > modern fahren "travel, go by sth.",
OHG fenstar (from Latin) > MHG venster > Fenster "window",
OHG fenni > MHG venne > Fenn "swampland, marsh" but Hohes Venn
(Germany/Belgium border),
OHG festi > MHG veste, vest > fest "solid, hard etc." (inherited),
late OHG or only MHG fest(e) > Fest "holiday" (cf. festival, festa, from
Latin),
OHG ferrana > MHG ferrene > fern "far" (why f- all the time?),
OHG frank > MHG frank > frank "free" (the old meaning cf. English frank:
generous, free in giving, or to frank = to send mail free of postage or to
allow to pass freely).
Perhaps there was some difference between f- and v- in the past. Now
spelling v- is clearly conventional. Examples like Vries may be treated as
spelling archaisms (or Low Franconisms = Dutch-isms).
> [...] As well as South-German (esp. Austrian) spelling -gg- of -ck-:
> Schwarzenegger instead of Schwarzenecker, idem Egg/Eck.
> Also compare Honecker (Hohnecker, Hohenecker) & Ho(h)negger.
This is a quite different problem, unrelated to the initial k/g, and which
should be strictly separated from it. Words with -gg- may be Low German (gg
> kk has not happened there). In this very example, Egge "harrow" is said to
be derivated from eggen "to harrow" and thus separated from Ecke "corner,
edge". The -gg- itself (known as long ago as in OHG) cannot be explained on
the High German ground as all geminated voiced stops (bb, dd, gg) became
voiceless (pp, tt, kk <ck>) there.
The merging of p/b, t/d, k/g in the initial position does not necessarily
mean that stops are not differentiated internally.
> [...] In "Auslaut", these consonants are always voiceless in all dialects
> & standard German.
Again, this is a completely different problem. In the past -p, -t, -k were
spelt everywhere. The spelling of -b, -d, -g (word-finally and also
morpheme-finally) is now restored and clearly arbitrary. It is mainly based
on /b/, /d/, /g/ in forms with endings.
> E.g. Hemd, stad, Stadt and regional Hemad, daad -- always pronounced
> [hemt, sta:t, stat, hemat, ta:t]. Daad means taat = täte
> (conjunctive perfect of tun, tat, getan). [...]
Both d's are because of hypercorrection. D- because of t/d merging in
southernmost dialects, -d because -t/-d distinction is purely orthographic.
>>To me the most plausible explanation is the expansion of commercialism
>> northward from Florence in the later Middle Ages.
> I'm afraid, it has nothing to do with these; but with the evolution of
> dialects
> that became the so-called Hochdeutsche Sprache (High German).
> (Low German dialects haven't yet introduced a series of sound changes
> that are typical of High & Middle German.)
Unfortunaltely, it has. The t/d difference is preserved in most High German
dialects as /t/ continues the Germanic /d/ while /d/ continues the Germanic
/þ/, and both consonants merge only in the final position. Besides, they
merged also intially but only in some Upper German dialects. The fact that
some forms with <d> and <t> occur side by side, is not a proof that /d/ and
/t/ are not distinguished at all. Some of them just come from different
dialects, and some are hypercorrected.
The explanation based on the expansion of commercialism is then really
convincing, especially in case of "tausend".
>> Without commerce, one seldom has use for numbers as big as a thousand
> Tausend/dausend is always pronounced [tauz&nt] in all dialects. Except
> Swiss German: there I don't know how intensely [d]-like [t] in [tü:zik]
> can be.
Such a unification is easily understandable. The language is used for
interpersonal communication. In the past higher numerals were often used in
dealing with buyers from different parts of the country. It promoted the
spread of standarized forms.
>> What I find really interesting about the Traubengruppe
>> is that Kluge connects OHG _dru:bo_ usw.
>> with the 'troop' group, which requires Gmc. *-bb-, UG -pp-: LG
>> _drubbel_,
> Also compare Taube "dove" -- Duwe ['du:-ve] in Northern/Low German.
> (Also there is whole lotta such "inversions" in the Franconian dialects
> spoken in the regions of Nuremberg, Bamberg, Würzburg, Aschaffenburg.)
> George
Once again, we cannot mix together a variety of linguistic phenomena without
composition and order only because they look superficially similar.
In Traube we have Gmc. /þ/ while in Taube we have Gmc. /d/. Just because of
it these are two completely different phenomena.
The first instance is based on IE *terb-/*treb-. This root is hard to be
analysed also on the IE ground and it is also reconstructed as *terbh-H2-;
*b < *bhH may have been regular at least in some IE dialects. Anyway, Latin
turba "commotion; crowd", turma "squadron" and also tribus "tribe" may
belong here (even if it has a mysterious -i-), as well as Greek sýrbē and
týrbē "noise", stréphō "to turn"; notice also trépō "to turn"). The same two
meanings and the same two -b- and -m- versions are in Germanic (note the
mysterious -u-): OE þrymm "troop, crowd" but Old Icelandic þrymr (and þruma)
"noise". Modern English troop is a loanword form Old French form which came
from Medieval Latin troppus. It is a loanword from Frankish *þropp in its
turn. English thorp "village, hamlet" and German Dorf may also be related
(as well as IE words with the meaning "house", also Latin trabs "beam,
balk").
OHG drūbo is directly related to Old Saxon þrūbo as well as to Old Frisian
forms. The irregular trūbe appears in MHD, with t on the place of d ("the
3rd Shift"). Modern Traube "bunch of grapes; gape; cluster" is its regular
continuation.
The geminate as in Schwyz Truppele "herd of cattle", Bavarian Trauppen
"bunch of individual things", or as in Latin troppus (borrowed from Germanic
after the 2nd Shift), is a result of a non-Holtzmann "Verschärfung" which
seems to occur irregularly in the vicinity of laryngeal. Thus Gmc. *þrubb-
could continue IE *tr(u)bhH- while Gmc. *þrūb- could come from IE *tr(u)Hbh-
with metathesis. Gmc. *þurp- < *trb- < IE *trbhH- would be the third variant
but this is a matter for another discussion.
Standard German Taube instance is completely different. First of all, it is
fully regular. Other Germanic languages, including Low German, have d- which
is original. The word comes from IE *dhubh-.
There are no "inversions" in Franconian dialects. Just t- in Upper
Franconian is a regular counterpart for d- in Low and Central Franconian. In
some words d- is in both groups of dialects. It is d- < Gmc. þ-, and it is
so because old Gmc. þ- and d- have merged into d- in Low German.
Summing up:
Germanic þ- = Low & Central German d- = Upper/Standard German d-
Germanic d- = Low & Central German d- = Upper/Standard German t-
Grzegorz J.