Re: Why there is t- in German tausend "thousand"?

From: ufnkex
Message: 71533
Date: 2013-11-09

dgkilday57 wrote:

>We still need to know why these two particular UG words with /t/-anlaut
>displaced the inherited ones with /d/-anlaut from MHG. 

In reality, virtually in all German dialects within the "reich" (i.e. this is not valid in remote "isle"-like
diaspora regions in East and South-East Europe) there is no "fixed" position of PTK vs BDG.
They are actually interchangeable. This is especially valid in Upper German (Oberdeutsch) and
Middle German (Mitteldeutsch) dialects. Hence, Deutsch/Teutsch and myriads of names in curious
spellings, e.g. Beyer/Peyer, Bichl(meier)/Pichl(meier), Berg/Perg, Alptraum/recent orthography
Albtraum, Pummerin/Bummerin (the nickname of the giant church bell in Vienna, emperor
Joseph 2nd's bell), the coexistence of name spellings containing Tal/Thal & Dal, Dall, Dahl
(e.g. Thalmeyer, Dallmayr), Pispers/Bispers (this name esp. in Rhenania); -brand(t)/ -prand;
and all those names containing -ald, -old, -(h)ard alternating in spelling iwth -alt, -olt, -(h)art;
feminine names containing -traud: there are also many written -traut. Etc. (Also note the
inclusion of sarcasm or mockery in the spellings Pursche and pöhse instead of the regular
Bursche and böse. Also note the alternance of the spellings for the 2nd names Borsche
(a famous German movie actor of the 30s-40s-50s) and Porsche (the Austrian car maker
and his designer nephew), both having the same old Slavic etymon Borislav and their
onomastic kinship Boruta and Poruta/Paruta.); Fries and Vries; Vitzt(h)um and Fitzt(h)um
(in many cases "abridged" as such: Fitz). Dachs/Dax "badger" e.g. in Dachsenberger,
Daxenberger  [daks&n] - whereas prince of Thurn und Taxis, with Italian roots in Bergamo
(Northern Italy), which initial variants of the name: de Tassis, de Tazzis (it. tasso "badger").
Türk-/Dürk-, e.g. Dür(c)kheim, Thüringer/Dü(h)ringer. Wattebausch & Bausch und Bogen,
but Pauschalreise, Pausch(al)betrag (Pausch/Bausch: the same word) (Etc. etc.)

As well as South-German (esp. Austrian) spelling -gg- of -ck-: Schwarzenegger instead of
Schwarzenecker, idem Egg/Eck. Also compare Honecker (Hohnecker, Hohenecker) & Ho(h)negger.

Also note spellings that try showing regional pronunciation (e.g. Bavarian, Saxonian, Suebian)
in which most of the PTK are rendered BDG and viceversa as compared with the standard
Hochdeutsch writing rules. Whereas the pronunciation stays the same, irrespective of the
writing system. (BTW, in colloquial German, [p, t, k, s, S, f] have "harte Aussprache" and the
voiced [b, d, g, z, 3, v] "weiche Aussprache". In order to ascertain which is which, the German-
speaking clerk asks: "p wie Paula oder b wie Berta?" :-)

In "Auslaut", these consonants are always voiceless in all dialects & standard German.
E.g. Hemd, stad, Stadt and regional Hemad, daad -- always pronounced [hemt, sta:t, stat,
hemat, ta:t]. Daad means taat = täte (conjunctive perfect of tun, tat, getan). Also, in Bavaria
and Austria the dialectal variant of infinitive tun "do" & indicative pres. 1st & 3rd pers. plural
is written dean, but its pronunciation is [tean], e.g. "singa dean ma iwwaroi" [... tean...]
(singen tun wir überall).

>To me the most plausible explanation is the expansion of commercialism northward from
>Florence in the later Middle Ages. 

I'm afraid, it has nothing to do with these; but with the evolution of dialects that became
the so-called Hochdeutsche Sprache (High German). (Low German dialects haven't
yet introduced a series of sound changes that are typical of High & Middle German.)

>Without commerce, one seldom has use for numbers as big as a thousand

Tausend/dausend is always pronounced [tauz&nt] in all dialects. Except Swiss German:
there I don't know how intensely [d]-like [t] in [tü:zik] can be.

>What I find really interesting about the Traubengruppe is that Kluge connects OHG
>_dru:bo_ usw. with the 'troop' group, which requires Gmc. *-bb-, UG -pp-:  LG _drubbel_,

Also compare Taube "dove" -- Duwe ['du:-ve] in Northern/Low German.

(Also there is whole lotta such "inversions" in the Franconian dialects spoken in
the regions of Nuremberg, Bamberg, Würzburg, Aschaffenburg.)

George