From: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
Message: 71323
Date: 2013-09-20
>Bhr.: Are You sure that Argiotalus is /ar-gjo/ and not /ar-gi-(j)o/?
>
>
>> [DGK]
>> In my personal notes I follow Alessio and a few others in writing such
>> words
>> with -r' when they show the trill with vocalic suffixes, like _arra_ 'the
>> male'. The handbooks cite only pronouns, some recently borrowed nouns, and
>> the native nouns _hor_ 'dog', _ur_ 'water', and _zur_ 'wood' as Basque
>> words
>> ending in weak -r (i.e. an underlying tap rhotic).
>>>
>> [Tavi]
>> In the past, this convention was in use among Basque writers but it was
>> abolished by the Basque Academy (Euskaltzaindia).
>> and it's still employed in Iberian transcriptions, but I think it's
>> preferrable the other way around, because (apart from loanwords) the tap
>> is
>> *secondary* in Basque, the trill being the genuine rhotic as in Iberian.
>>>
>> In other words, Paleo-Basque/Iberian /r/ wasn't part of a strong/weak pair
>> and it's reflected as a trill in modern Basque and Romance. However,
>> there're some reare cases of Basque /r/ arising from gemination of /R/, as
>> in larre 'meadow; heath; uncultivated land, desert', a loanword from
>> Celtic
>> (Gaulish) *landa: 'heath, moor' > *lanna > larra > larre.
>>
>> [DGK]
>> But _landa_ 'campo, pieza de terreno' occurs widely in Basque (Bisc.,
>> Guip.,
>> Aezc., Lab., High & Low Nav., Ronc.) and appears to continue Gaul. *landa:
>> directly. Moreover a Late Gaul. *lanna would have given Bq. *lana, since
>> Latin _anno:na_ gives Bq. _anoa_. If _larra-_, _larre_ is borrowed from
>> Gaulish, it probably continues a collective *la:rja: (or *larja: by
>> Osthoff's shortening) 'flat area' from *la:ro- 'flat surface, floor', PIE
>> *pl.h2-ró- or *pléh2-ro-. (Latin _pla:nus_ can represent *pl.h2-nó- and
>> provides no evidence for a heteroclite, pace Matasovic', only for
>> different
>> suffixes.)
>>
> Bhr.:
>
> All right, I just wonder why Osthoff's shortening in *la:rja:
> (wouldn't it rather develop a Sievers' variant *la:rija:?)
>
> DGK:
>
> In his draft glossary Matasovic' has several examples of heavy syllables not
> developing a Sievers' variant, e.g. Proto-Celtic *argjo- 'white; snow' >
> Gaul. Argio-talus, etc.
>[DGK] I do not know whether Osthoff would be applicableBhr.: van Windekens'
> in this time frame; hence my parenthetical guess. A Basque borrowing would
> not distinguish length.
>
> Your own
> [DGK] etymology of _glo:ria_ does not involve Sievers.Bhr.: nor Osthoff
> [DGK] My problem isBhr.: "bright, enlightened with glory"
> that I never heard of being "green with glory",
> [DGK] so I find the route GaulishBhr.: if You formulate Your theory in these very terms, I don't think
> *klovesja: (vel sim.) > Ligurian > Old Latin more plausible, as with
> _gladius_. However, in order to investigate this theory that initial
> Gaulish tenues became mediae when borrowed into Ligurian (which I now
> attribute to differences in initial consonant strength, NOT aspiration), I
> need to get a copy of J.U. Hubschmied's long paper on Late Gaulish in Vox
> Romanica vol. 3 from the university library. Once I get this paper, it may
> turn out that counter-examples kill my theory.