Re: Portuguese, Spanish bode "buck"

2013/3/26, Tavi <oalexandre@...>:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
> <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>>
>> A Celtic origin would be phonetically implied by a comparison with
>> Bavarian butz, butzel 'person or animal charatcterized by a short and
>> thick form' < Germanic *butti-z, *buttila-z < PIE *bhud-n'i-s,
>> *bhud-n'i-lo-s: PIE *bhud-n'i-s > Celtic *buddi-s >
>> Proto-Ibero-Romance *bodde
>>
>> > Besides of phonetically convoluted (I'm Sean's opposite with regard
>> > to this),
>>
>> *Bhr.: I hope You are able to explain how Your "link to NEC
>> *bHe:mtts^y 'deer, mountain goat' (NCED 258)" can be less "convoluted"
>>
>> > In this word, I guess the Proto-NEC lateral affricate would
>> > correspond to a dental stop in the Basque (*piti-) and Romance
> (bode) forms. In
>> > fact, those consonants are somewhat similar to PIE palato-velars in
> which
>> > they're reflected as lateral fricatives in some languages and velar
> stops in
>> > others, as discovered by Trubetzkoy in the '30s.
>>
>> *Bhr.: I'm afraid I haven't understood (especially how can it be less
>> convoluted than a correspondence Celtic /dd/ to Proto-Ibero-Romance
>> /dd/);
>>
>> > It's precisely your supposed Kluge's Law in Celtic which gave this
> /dd/.
>>
>> *Bhr.: Let's take German Butze at its face value: /tts/ (< Germanic
>> */tt/) in order to explain Ibero-Romance /d/ < either /dd/ or lenited
>> /t/; now, everyone realizes that the distance between Ibero-Romance
>> /d/ and German /tts/ isn't greater than the one between Ibero-Romance
>> /d/ and *bHe:mtts^y: if we add that Castilian-Portuguese /o/ (neither
>> from /au/ nor from short /o/) is closer to German /u/ than to */e:/,
>> we necessarily conclude that, however "convoluted" an etymology from
>> PIE *bhud'nis can be, it's less so than one from *bHe:mtts^y
>>
> I'm afraid yours isn't a fair comparison, because you apparently forgot
> the IE and the Altaic words with /o, u/ I quoted before.
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/71115

*Bhr.: If You mean "Turkic *bugu(ra) 'male deer; camel stallion',
Mongolian *bojir 'male elk', Tungusic *pegu(le)-/*pogu(le)- 'young of
elk, elk' (...) besides Indo-Iranian and Armenian *bug�-, Germanic and
Celtic *bukko-, (...) Italic becco 'male goat' and Basque behi 'cow'",
then You are making Your etymology still more "phonetically
convoluted", provided You can an explanation, if all, for the velars
as apposed to Ibero-Romance /d/

>
>> > Anyway, you demonstrated your proposed IE etymology and this word
> are
>> > homonymous in German.
>>
>> *Bhr.: therefore semantically no more misfit
>>
> Not really, because your etymology works for the wrong word, i.e.
> Bavarian butz, not German Butz 'little lamb'.

*Bhr.: They are the same word

>
> Besides Spanish boto/a 'blunt; clumsy, akward' there's also Occitan
> (Langedocian) boda 'paquet rebondi; gros ventre; grosseur; tumeur'.
>

*Bhr.: very good and a plausible etymology indeed, but do You really
believe that 'gros ventre' is closer than 'Lämmchen' to 'buck'?