| Yes, they do. That's why I said <r-> or <-rr->. <-r->, of course, is tapped. I've heard northerners use both trill /rr/ and velar /R/ --actually /h/ Velar /R/ also shows up in non-standard Puerto Rican and Dominican Spanish but usually as /hr/
--- On Tue, 1/8/13, Joao S. Lopes
<josimo70@...> wrote:
From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
Subject: Re: [tied] potto
To: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 8:32 PM
Carioca pronnounce R- and -rr- the same way, and most of the Northern Brazilians. JS Lopes
De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Enviadas: Terça-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2013 23:28
Assunto: Re: [tied] potto
And here's the problem. If you ask a non-velarizing Spanish or Portuguese speaker to pronounce <r-> or <-rr-> they will trill strongly. You have to listen for a while. Most Latin American's do it very lightly but some do it strongly. It usually comes out as "American R" in consonant clusters but every once and a while you'll hear /bzhaso/ for <brazo>. Listen to your friends from the South when they're out of the office and aren't paying attention to their speech.
--- On Tue, 1/8/13, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:
From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
Subject: Re: [tied] potto
To:
"cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 8:08 PM
Yes, it's hard to me distinguish <h> from <R>. But I still can't imagine this -chr- sound in Brazil.
De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Enviadas: Terça-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2013 22:46
Assunto: Re: [tied] potto
I've heard both a strong trill and a relaxed assibilated trill from Paulistanos and Gaúchos (some, not all). The part of Argentina right next to Rio Grande do Sul is very famous for its strongly assibilated /rr/, Corrientinos are often called "Corzhentinos". The Gaúchos I've met sound a lot like them but with less assibilation.I'm guessing you use the Carioca /R/ and maybe don't hear the difference. Most Americans can't pick up the assibilated trill in Latin American Spanish until it's pointed out to them or they live in Latin America --- On Tue, 1/8/13, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:
From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
Subject: Re: [tied] potto
To: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com"
<cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 7:34 PM
My father family is from Southern Brazil and I'd never heard this pronounciation as "chr". Paulistanos, Gauchos and Cariocas pronounciate quatro "four" the same way, <kwatru>. the -rr- sounds different, with Cariocas pronounciating a velar R, so velarized that sounds like <h>, and Southern Brazilians pronounciating like -r- or a non-velarized -rr-. Joao S Lopes
De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Enviadas: Terça-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2013 22:00
Assunto: Re: [tied] potto
I've heard among Paulistanos and Gaúchos living in the US
--- On Tue, 1/8/13, Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...> wrote:
From: Joao S. Lopes <josimo70@...>
Subject: Re: [tied] potto
To: "cybalist@yahoogroups.com" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 9:14 AM
For a lusophonous, c^r is almost unpronounceable. JS Lopes
De: Brian M. Scott <bm.brian@...>
Para: Joao S. Lopes <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Enviadas: Terça-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2013 11:33
Assunto: Re: [tied] potto
At 5:12:53 AM on Tuesday, January 8, 2013, Joao S. Lopes
wrote:
> De: Rick McCallister gabaroo6958@...>
>> Yes, in much of Latin American Spanish, sounds like
>> chr- and sounds like zhr or shr- Costa Rica,
>> Guatemala, Bogotá, parts of southern Mexico, of Chile and
>> Argentina are famous for this pronunciation. I've read
>> that this pronunciation also exists in some Portuguese
>> dialects. It also supposedly exists in northern
>> Vietnamese, Czech, Gaelic, etc.
> In Portuguese, never, at least in Brazil. Is this ch like
> German ich?
No, English.
Brian
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