Re: bidet

Kluge's Law is in fact being rehabilitated by Leiden School; Stokes'
formulation must be precised by Zupitza's one.
PIE root constraints cannot inhibit the proposal of a law, because
they are themselves speculative (the very prohibited sequences *deg-
and *ged- are normal roots in Pokorny and require always controversial
explanations).
Gaulish accent is in turn matter of discussion; Greek renderings, at
face value (for what they can say, that is admittedly little), do
exhibit oxytony, often in accordance with PIE etyma.
*paþa can (not: must) anyway have a good Germanic etymology, why
should a borrowing be preferred? I hope not for the tale of the lack
of PIE */b/, because this would be a circular argument

2012/10/30, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:

>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
> <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>>
>> 2012/10/23, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
>> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 2012/10/18, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
>> >> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> (...)
>> >> >> > As for reconstruction, Old Indic bhinná- 'broken &c.'
>> >> >> > expectedly
>> >> >> > means 'a fragment, bit, portion' as a m. substantive (Sir Monier
>> >> >> > Monier-Williams, A Sanskrit-English Dictionary Etymologically and
>> >> >> > Philologically Arranged with special reference to Cognate
>> >> >> > Indo-European Languages, Oxford 1899 : 757); its prototype
>> >> >> > *bhid-nó-s
>> >> >> > would regularly yield Celtic *biddo-s (cf. MacBain 1911: 36
>> >> >> > *bid-do-)
>> >> >> >> Gaulish *Biddos (*<Biddus>, maybe directly attested by Bingen
>> >> >> > <biddu[>).
>> >>
>> >> > DGK:
>> >> > Kluge's Law should have given Celtic *bitto-s. The gemination in
>> >> > Biddu[s]
>> >> > is likely hypocoristic, from a compound name whose prototheme was
>> >> > 'bite'.
>> >>
>> >> Bhr.:
>> >>
>> >> It isn't Kluge's, it's Stokes' Law; tt < *tn + stress, dd < *dn +
>> >> stress. You may not believe in it, but that's its formulation
>>
>> > DGK:
>> > Superseded. See Miguel's comments in message #56156.
>
> Stokes gives both Urkelt. *ketti- and *keddi- (for example) in his own paper
> (IF 2:167-73, 1893), but his attestable forms (mostly Irish) reflect the
> unvoiced *-tt- etc., and he makes it clear that he was inspired by Kluge's
> Law.
>
>> *Bhr.:
>>
>> An extremely short comment without any additional argumentation (pro or
>> contra).
>>
>> Best formulation:
>>
>> Ernst ZUPITZA, «Über doppelkonsonanz [sīc] im Irischen», Zeitschrift
>> für vergleichende Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der indogermanischen
>> Sprachen. Begründet von A. Kuhn. Herausgegeben von E. Kuhn und J.
>> Schmidt. Band XXXVI. Neue Folge Band XVI (Gütersloh, Druck und Verlag
>> von C. Bertelsmann, 1900 [IV, 668 S.]), S. 202-245.
>>
>> Kluge's Law is best understood if operating after 1st
>> Lautverschiebung, so its very input is different from Celtic (where
>> the Law - for those who believe in it - operates before
>> dephonologization of */p/); such difference is reminiscent of
>> Graßman's Law in Greek and Indo-Aryan respectively, so OK for
>> considering it one and the same tendence, but since the Scholars who
>> investigated it were two or more it's fair to mention them.
>
> I cannot agree that Kluge's Law in Germanic works better when it follows one
> or more acts of the (first) Lautverschiebung. The conventionally accepted
> sequence (e.g. Streitberg, Urgerm. Gr. 138, 1896) fails to account for
> 'thane', a perpetual thorn in the side of theorists. PIE root-restrictions
> forbid *teg(^)H- so we must derive Proto-Gmc. *þegna- from an oxytone
> *tek-nó-, following Grimm and Verner but not Kluge.
>
> As a social term 'underling' literally meaning 'offspring', 'thane' can
> easily be a loanword. Its phonology is explicable if it was borrowed into
> Gmc. after Kluge's Law operated, but before the entirety of the Grimm-Verner
> (first) Lautverschiebung. The source language was unlikely to be Gaulish,
> since pre-shifted loanwords indicate the retracted Gaul. accent, not the
> original PIE accent. I have argued elsewhere that Gmc. *paþa- 'path' is
> most likely borrowed from Gaul. *báto- 'passed (over), traveled (over)'
> from PIE *gW&2-tó-. (Insular Celtic knows the verb in the sense 'pass
> away, die'.) Bata:via/Betouwe probably involves a local reborrowing AFTER
> the Lautverschiebung, Gmc. *Bata:hwjo: 'Bata: Island', the Gaul. name
> *Báta: 'The Way' perhaps referring to the road leading to the temple of
> Lugus at Lugudu:non/Leiden. A Venetic source of *teknó- is possible as far
> as the accent goes. I have no credible evidence for Kluge's Law in Venetic.
> As pointed out before, the personal name Bukka may come from Illyrian
> substrate.
>
> In this view the input to Kluge's Law is similar for Germanic, Celtic, and
> Italic (and possibly Macedonian). The output is different for labiovelars
> in Gmc., and I cannot yet say whether this has anything to do with the
> neglected stepchild among Gmc. soundlaws, the one which labializes a
> labiovelar in a certain environment, whose outcome has been badly obscured
> by subsequent analogical processes. I hope (perhaps vainly) to rehabilitate
> this soundlaw someday and place it into its proper chronological spot in the
> sequence.
>
> DGK
>
>
>