Re: [tied] A Wanderwort of Ultimate Luwian Origin from the Root *bhe

From: Rick McCallister
Message: 69943
Date: 2012-08-06

AS per a recent post, I do believe that the word is ultimate from IE BUT more likely via Afro-Asiatic to Italic. The Luvian > Etruscan thing works if you believe Etruscan to be some dialect of Luvian, but it patently is not. It probably came via Phoenician. 
BTW: It would be good to know when iron weapons first turn up in Etruria, that would help determine the source


From: The Egyptian Chronicles <the_egyptian_chronicles@...>
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Tavi <oalexandre@...>; Torsten <tgpedersen@...>; Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 11:36 PM
Subject: [tied] A Wanderwort of Ultimate Luwian Origin from the Root *bherg´- 'to shine'

 
Alexander Octavia  wrote:
 
I'm going to summarize the weakness I've found in De Vaan's work. As indicated by its title, this is a Latin dictionary where other Italic languages and Proto-Italic itself play a minor role. Secondly, in the introduction he sticks to the *outdated* Italo-Celtic hypothesis, in despite of being rejected by his colleague Matasovic.
 
Although he says his is a dictionary of "inherited lexicon" (thus excluding Greek loanwords), he includes some likely Etruscan borrowings, often with a shameless laziness. For example, he thinks Latin ferrum 'iron' < P Italic *ferso-m might be a loanword from some Phoenician dialect, because the word is attested in Semitic (e.g. Akkadian persillum).
 
In fact, this is a Wanderwort of ultimate Luwian origin from the root *bherg´- 'to shine', introduced to Italy by the Etruscans.
 
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Ishinan's reponse:
 
It is well known that a sound argument is always defended with good reasoning and supported by verifiable facts and quotations from reliable sources that lend credibility to any theory. I am afraid the following article you have provided us with, fails to meet adequately this essential requirement.
 
http://oxford.academia.edu/IlyaYakubovich/Papers/460867/Semitic_Word_for\_Iron_as_Anatolian_Loanword
 
 I will explain myself :
 
In my opinion the article in question is full of unforgivable errors which I would like to point out.  An example would be the  following quote from the article:
 
"Akkadian has been recognized as the source of words for 'iron' in other Semitic languages such as , Ugaritic brdl, Hebrew and Phoenician brzl, Aramaic przl, Epigraphic South Arabic frzn , Classical Arabic firzil. (Artzi 1969:268-269)"
 
A red flag is immediately raised.  First, there is no such word as firzil with the meaning of 'iron' in Classical Arabic. Instead firzil means fetter (BTW fetter made of any material). I have no idea why this is mentioned in the article. 
 
The correct word for 'iron' in Classical Arabic is brtl (the medial letter is an emphatic t.) In addition, the article fails to mention the Ancient Egyptian partar for 'iron' where the final letter is a case of (r/l).
 
 
Second, Akkadian is not the source of words for 'iron' but rather the Canaanite 'brdl'.
 
Holger Pedersen (1867-1953), a Danish linguist once wrote in his famous 1931's book "The Discovery of Language" about the so-called "Semitic languages". According to him (and linguists in general), the Hebrew, Aramaic and Akkadian languages had all undergone significant linguistic degeneration. Only Old Arabic, due to its relative isolation in the Arabian peninsula, remained closer to the old stratum of the "Semitic" form of the language and therefore was closer to the Canaanite/Ugaritic.
 
 
Thirdly,  your suggestion that " In fact, this is a Wanderwort of ultimate Luwian origin from the root *bherg´- 'to shine', introduced to Italy by the Etruscans" would lead us to think of an Indo-European root (see Pokorny Etymon: 139-40 *bherg-, *bhreg- IE  *bherk- to shine; bright, white)
 
In this case,  I would invite you to look into the older Semitic root "brq" Ugaritic 'brq'.
 
 
UGARITIC SOURCES:
 
KTU 1.3:III.26:   In the beginning of the Ba`al myth the god is proud to be the only one among gods and man who understands the lightning (brq)
 
At first,  goddess `Anatu expresses some skepticism and invites him to prove his point by putting his thunderbolt in the sky, and kindling his flash.
 
KTU 1.3: III.26-28 , 1.4 :V.9; 1.5:V.7f
 
Hence, as the master of the rainy season Ba`lu bears the epithet of Rider on the Clouds.  He is the only god able to keep (brq) lightening in his hands.
 
Later on, Athiratu admits that Ba`lu is the only one able to let loose the lightning and the god Ilu recognizes that Ba`lu is the only one able to poise the lance, (a metaphor for the thunderbolt). According to some texts Ba`lu had seven thunderbolts (brqm) eight storehouses of thunder.
 
 
See also  Hebrew 'brq' , Classical Arabic 'brq': to shine, gleam, glisten, lightning, bright, brightness
 
 
 
PS.  To my knowledge, a semantic relationship between 'iron' and 'shine' has never been established. But perhaps you can suggest one.
 
Best regards,
 
Ishinan
 
August 3rd, 2012