Re: Cremona (was: Ligurian Barga and */p/; was: Ligurian)

From: dgkilday57
Message: 69877
Date: 2012-06-26

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>
> 2012/6/20, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
> >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
> >> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >
> >> >> Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
> >> >> curve of the Adige.
> >>
> >> > DGK:
> >> > So why was the RIVER not called that?
> >>
> >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
> >>
> >> If You repeat the question, it becomes a more general question. Do
> >> You admit that rivers can have had more names than today (I think You
> >> do), therefore that these names can refer to different sections of the
> >> river - corresponding to territorial units - and survive as
> >> territorial names when one river-name wins over the other ones for the
> >> same river?
>
> > DGK:
> > The only reason to admit that would be to admit greater ethnolinguistic
> > heterogeneity then than now, which again your model denies. And it is quite
> > remarkable that 3 for 3 of your -o:na-names involve NO EVIDENCE that the
> > rivers were EVER called that.
>
> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>
> I've jut cited three examples for areal reasons. If You desire the
> founding material, it's constituted by plenty of /-o:ne/-RIVER-names
> (sometimes in correspondence with -ate-ford names on the same rivers,
> like Vellone [Varese] < *welno-ponos 'good water' by Velate <
> *welno-h1ah2tu-s, Caldone [Lecco] < *kah2udo-pono-s 'posterior water'
> by Acquate < Coade < *kah2udo-h1yah2tu-s)

Your methodology is BEYOND unfalsifiable. Not only can you invent a Celtic etymology for ANY modern form (as indeed you boasted early in the discussion), but you have tacked on conservative /p/-retaining enclaves for Porcobera and the Plinii (and any other inconvenient /p/, /o:/, or what-have-you). How could such a scheme even CONCEIVABLY fail? (And on the other side of the coin, of what possible scientific value is it?)

Celtic etymologies should only be postulated under compelling evidence. We have Naro:na in Dalmatia, Scardo:na in Liburnia, and Flano:na in Istria (also the river Formio:, obviously Venetic). Skardon (Polyb.) against Scordus (Liv.) shows Illyrian against Venetic vocalism (cf. Lith. <skardu`s> 'steep'). Hence both Venetic and Illyrian (presumably along with Rhaetic) had -o:na(:) as a place-name suffix, and there is no need whatsoever to concoct vanished Celtic river-names in -o:na: < *-o-ponah2, unless you regard this whole business as a mere parlor game.

DGK