>>
>> 2012/5/16, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>:
>> > It's a long shot, but *bart- could be related to the German toponymic
>> > element *part-, which is found in Vennemann's work. I believe it
>> > supposed to
>> > mean "swamp" (vel sim) but see Vennemann
>> From: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
>> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 9:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [tied] Ligurian
>>
>> "Zur Erklaerung bayerischer Gewaesser- und Siedlungsnamen",
>> Sprachwissenschaft 18, 425-483 (about Partenkirchen, Partenheim, la
>> Perche, Partney, Parthe, Partington, Bardemara, Bardenbach : Basque
>> barta)
>> In an IE perspective, it would be (except Partington) *bhor(H)-t'o-;
>> maybe cf. Ir. bar(r)thain 'act of hindering, harming, endangering' (<
>> *barrotino-), verbal noun of 2 barraid, usually held for English loan
>> (bar, itself from French barrer, Western Romance *barra 'bar', of
>> probable Pre-Latin origin), although nothing would be against a Celtic
>> origin as well as for WRom *barra < PIE *bho:r[H]-s-ah2 'related to
>> the act of cutting' (*bherH- 'cut' Pokorny IEW 133-135, LIV2 80)
>> better than *bhrs-ah2 (*bhers- 'quick'...)
>
2012/5/17, dgkilday57 <
dgkilday57@...>:
> Very difficult to connect 'the act of cutting' to 'Querstange'. Very, very
> difficult.
>
Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
I can't reply, because semantic trends can be universal or at least
typological - like phonological trends - but semantic laws (in the
same sense of phonological laws) are restricted to individual meanings
from one stage to another one (e.g. Latin paganus, domus).
Broadly speaking, semantic change very often is due to metonymy or
metaphor. In this particular case I thought that bars do cut people
of.
Anyway, the problem is: Italo-Western Romance (*)ba(:)rra 'bar', if
of Pre-Latin origin, can be Celtic (Irish barraid 2., very probably
connected with that, may be Celtic heritage at least as correclty as a
loan from English < French). If Celtic, /b/ < either */b/ or */bh/ or
*/gw/; /a(:)r/ < either */-rs-/ or */-ars-/ or (as I also believe)
*/-o:rs-/ (instead of */-rs-/, PIE */-rp-/ is conceivable, but I don't
know any root *b(h)erp- / *b(h)rep- or *gwerp- / *gwrep-, so *-p-
should be a suffix and in this case the root would end in *-r-, while
with */-rs-/ the root can end in *-rs- as well as in *-r-).
Since we were discussing about High German /part-/ in comparison with
/bard-/ and with Celtic bart-, the only possible reconstruction was
Germanic *barda- < PIE *bhor-t'o- vs. Celtic *barto- < PIE *bho:r-to-
(unless we admit bard-< Germanic *barzda- < PIE *bhorsdho-, but in
this case as well the link with Celtic bart- < *barrto- < *barsto- <
PIE *bhrsto- reduces to *bhers-, with one more root phoneme but
without any suffix and qualitative ablaut identity more). Of course,
one could think Partenkirchen < Parthanum is pre-Germanic and
precisely *Bardano-, but this would make the comparison with Bart-
looser. (Partenkirchen has since long been ascribed to 'Illyrian',
with PIE */p/; this would destroy any link with Celtic / Ligurian
*bart-.)
Pokorny lists eight *bher- roots (even more in Walde - Pokorny): 1.
*bher- 'bear', 2. *bher- 'boil, violent movement', 3. *bher- 'cut'
(*bherH-), 4. *bher- 'murmur', 5. *bher- 'bright, brown', 6. *bher-
'cook', 7. *bher- ' web', and *bher- 'point' in *bhre-g'-, *bhre-n-,
*bhren-dh-, *bhren-k-, *bhre-u- (167); see also Walde - Pokorny 4.
*bher- 'magic', 8. *bher- 'eat', 9. *b(h)er(g'(h))- 'throw'. Among
these, I'd prefer *bherH- 'cut' (a barrage cuts off). *bhers- 'swift'
and *bhres- 'burst' seem to far.
If we don't care about German Part-, the etymology of Italo-Western
Romance (*)ba(:)rra remains open to 1. *gwer- 'throat', 2. *gwer(H)-
'heavy', 3. *gwer- 'mountain' (I can't find *ber- roots). Among these,
I'd prefer *gwerH- 'heavy' (a bar is usually quite heavy).
If the choice is between *bherH- 'cut' and *gwerH- 'heavy', phonology
doesn't provide any help. Irish 2. barraid 'hinder, harm' would maybe
lead more directly to 'cut' than to 'heavy', but this is by no means
compelling.