Re: Ligurian

2012/5/16, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:

>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
> <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>>
>> 2012/5/4, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
>> >
>> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
>> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >> [top-posting corrected]
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> But nevertheless: bairt 'girl' : Gothic barn 'child' (I was
>> >> >>> about
>> >> >>> to write 'kind'!...), once attested (+ bairte), we're linguists,
>> >> >>> not
>> >> >>> lawyers ("testis unus testis nullus"), so why doubtful? The
>> >> >>> Auraicept
>> >> >>> na n-éces are after all a trustworthy source. Whence otherwise
>> >> >>> Continental Celtic *Bartia:kon > Barzâgh / Barzago (Lecch / Lecco
>> >> >>> [Lombardy])?
>>
>> >> >> [DGK:]
>> >> >> Whence otherwise? From Ligurian, of course, with a secondary
>> >> >> ending
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> Gaulish superstrate. To wit, PIE *bHr.ti'- 'act of bearing' (Skt.
>> >> >> <bhr.ti's.>, Av. <-b@...@tis^>, Lat. <fors> 'luck, chance', OE
>> >> >> <ge-byrd>
>> >> >> 'birth', etc.) regularly yields Lig. *bartis 'inflow, inlet, site
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> importation' vel sim., cognate with Celt. *britis 'carrying,
>> >> >> judgment'
>> >> >> (OIr
>> >> >> <brith>, etc.). Retained as a local term by the Gaulish invaders,
>> >> >> *bartis
>> >> >> becomes the base of *Bartia:kon 'town near the inlet' vel sim.
>> >> >> Much
>> >> >> better
>> >> >> than trying to explain it as pure Celtic.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> DGK
>> >
>> > [Bh.:]
>> >> And of course Your theory predicts that the Gaulish invaders have
>> >> been so careful to retain from Ligurian just those terms whose /ar/
>> >> was from PIE syllabic */r/ before stop (while all other place-names
>> >> [200] are plainly Celtic) and to let them arrive to Ireland just in
>> >> time for a registration in the Auraicept na n-�ces...
>>
>> > [DGK:]
>> > No, my theory explains *bartis as a toponomastic loanword from Ligurian
>> > to
>> > Celtic, with no phonological criteria applied by the borrowers. Its
>> > retention is, pardon the root, fortuitous. Kilday finally gets some
>> > good
>> > luck!
>> >
>>
>> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>> So, where do Yo suggest Ir. bairt comes from? To my limited
>> knowledge, there's no place-name whose stem is simple *Barti-s

> DGK:
> What is the stem of Bart (Piem., prov. Novara)? Both d'Arbois (Les prem.
> inh. de l'Europe, 1894, 2:92) and Bottiglioni (Elem. prel. della top. corsa,
> 1929, 62) considered it connected with Bartasca (Cors., near Calvi),
> providing evidence for a Ligurian stratum in Corsica.
>
> Further down on p. 62, Bottiglioni has the germ of a plausible theory of the
> name Populonia. Servius thought it had been founded by Corsicans, but in
> historical times it was ruled by Etruscans, under the name Pupluna (well
> attested from coins). B. noted the similarity to Boplo (Sent. Minuc.).
> Now, if *boplo: was a Ligurian appellative meaning 'defensible hill' vel
> sim., it might have been applied to the hill of Populonia, with *boplo:
> becoming *puplu "in bocca etrusca", and getting the Etr. suffix -na as the
> name of the settlement which Etruscans took over. This makes more sense to
> me than other explanations I have seen of Populonia.
>
> DGK
>
>
>

Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
My own etymology of Boplo is *Bhh2-o-pl[h1]-o-h3on- 'which has the
Castle in its sight' (the sit of Castelum Alianum).
Bartasca, river of Calvi and its valley, seems to imply a derivational
stem *barto- or *barta- rather than *barti-, but of course that would
be a minor difference (a matter of word-formation); Bart can in turn
reflect *barto- (and indeed *barti-, albeit one would rather expect
barc' ['barʧ] as most regular outcome), but not *barta-, which would
remain unaltered.