Re: Ligurian

With the risk of derailing an interesting discussion, I have a few question below.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>
> 2012/5/1, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
>
>
> > DGK:
> > What I fail to understand is why you should invoke an /o:/-grade in the
> > first place, unless it is a mere red herring intended to distract attention
> > from the straightforward analysis of Ligurian toponyms in Barg- as
> > reflecting Lig. *barg-, equivalent to Celt. *brig- and Gmc. *burg-, from PIE
> > *bHr.g^H-.
>
> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
> What's straightforward is the comparison between Barga and the
> root *bherg'h- in its meaning 'hill, mountain'. When it comes to the
> question of the root's ablaut grade, one should at least take into
> consideration all the five of them (we have no means of knowing the
> vowel quantity of /a/):
> 1) *bhrg'h- > *barg- with vocalic */r/ > /ar/ as in Greek, Anatolian,
> Armenian, Iranian
> 2) *bherg'h- > *barg- with */e/ > /a/ as in Iranian and Indic
> 3) *bhorg'h- > *barg- with */o/ > /a/ as in Germanic, Baltic,
> Messapian, Albanian, Anatolian, Iranian and Indic
> 4) *bhe:rg'h- > *barg- with */e:/ > /a:/ as in Germanic
> 5) *bho:rg'h- > *barg- with */o:/ > /a:/ as in Celtic

Do we have corroborating evidence for this chronology, i.e. *o: > *a: before Osthoff's Law in Celtic? Intuitively, I'd suspect *o:RC > *oRC in Celtic, but I'm not aware of any examples at the moment.


>
> > DGK:
> > for all place-names
> > where Celts are historically known to have lived, and if you get stuck with
> > something like Porcobera, you defy established Celtic studies and invent an
> > "archaic Celtic" which retained initial /p/ right up to Roman times and
> > beyond.
>
> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>
> Facts:
> 1) In Ireland there are place names of the structure Áth 'Ford' + X
> (Paradebeispiel: Áth Cliath); O'Rahilly in 1943 has detected an older
> layer with posponed -ad (where /d/ < */t/ regularly in post-posttonic
> position)
> 2) OIr. áth < PIE *h1iah2-tu-s 'passage' (√*h1iah2- 'go' < √*h1ei- 'go')

[...]

>
> Working hypothesis: -ate = OIr. áth 'ford'
>
> Let's see: Áth Nó < Celtic *Ia:tus nowos 'new ford'; *Nowo-ia:tus
> > Latin *Nouoia:tus > Romance †Novoggiate: it doesn't work
> But let's try again: Áth Nó < Celtic *Ia:tus nowos 'new ford' < PIE
> *H1iah2tus ne/owos; *Nowo-h1iah2tus > Late PIE *Nowo:ja:tus > Celtic
> *Nowa:ja:tus > *Nowa:a:tus (regular loss of /j/ between identical
> vowels) > Gaulish *Noua:tus > Latin *Noua:tus > Romance Novate: it
> works!
>

Are we at all sure that OIr. áth derives from *h1yah2tu-? I'd much prefer linking it with MW adwy 'gap', Bret. ode, oade < *adui 'gap (in a hedge, etc.)', presumably a derivative *a:towyo- 'a pass, gap' from the u-stem *a:tu- found in OIr. áth 'ford'. Early pretonic shortening of *a: > *a in British Celtic is not without parallel.

This would rule out a reconstruction with initial *(H)y-, since this would be preserved as such in British Celtic.

Anders