Re: Ligurian

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:

>
> 2012/4/27 dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
>
> > **
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 2012/4/24, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
> > > >
> > > > >> 2. Bormani, just like Bormio, can better proceed from *bhor-mo-
> > (*bher-
> > > > >> 'boil')
> > > > >
> > > > > Read Kretschmer's paper in KZ 38.
> > > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > Does it suffice?
> > > > And now please tell me what's wrong with /bh/ and *bher-w-
> > >
> > > There is no basis for naming hot springs *bHor-mo-, and plenty for
> > naming them *gWHor-mo-. Kretschmer's paper explains how Gaulish *borw-
> > (from *bHorw-) was substituted for Ligurian *borm-, since no stem of
> > similar sense occurred in Gaulish.
> > >
> > > The variant <Bormitomago> (abl., It. Ant.) very likely shows the
> > original Ligurian stem of the place-name, with Gaul. <magos> 'field'
> > appended, and the same typical Gaul. folk-etymological replacement of
> > *Borm- with *Borw- in the more common <Borb->. The Germanic forms Latinized
> > as <Warmatia>, <Wormacia>, <G(u)ormetia>, etc. indicate that the Germans
> > translated the Lig. stem as 'warm', rather than folk-etymologizing it. In
> > no other principled way can the W- of Worms be explained. Since the
> > Vangiones, a Gmc. tribe, were already there in late antiquity (Ptol.), the
> > W- cannot be a hypercorrection for Lat. B-, as some have suggested.
> > >
> > I neglected to mention yesterday that the German name of Bormio is also
> > Worms. This agreement with Worms-am-Rhein (Borbe:tomagus etc.) can hardly
> > be fortuitous and indicates that the 5th-c. Longobardi agreed with the
> > Vangiones in rendering Ligurian *Borm-. The Germanic languages have
> > reflexes of *bHer-mo:n- such as Old English <beorma> 'yeast, foam, barm',
> > but they chose not to use them here.
> >
> > Also, Pieri a century ago (Top. Serchio) observed that Barga, Barghe,
> > Bargi, Sobbargi, Bargenne, Bargecchia, etc., are all situated on or by
> > hills, and deduced the sense 'hill' or 'fort' for *barg-, agreeing with
> > Ligurian phonology as I have presented it, but not with Celtic *brig-.
> >
> > DGK

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

> >
> Of course, there's a nice paper by Max Siller on that very topic
> ("Bormio in un poema tedesco medievale? Sulle leggendarie basi del
> Rosengarten zu Worms", Bollettino Storico Alta Valtellina 8 / 2005 (Bormio
> [Sondrio]: Centro Studi Storici Alta Valtellina, 2006), 271-290. Just a
> minor remark about Longobards: until the 6th-c. CE (568 AD) they were still
> in Pannonia, they probably reached the Upper Valley of Adda river just in
> the late 7th / early 8th c. (curiously enough, near the probably eponym
> place Teglio there's a hamlet Vangione, maybe a mere Celtic-Germanic
> isogloss)
> (Rather, I think You may have had no occasion of having a glance to the
> 1200 pages of a recent book of mine - alas in local academic language - on
> Bormio / Worms and other ca. 200 Pre-Roman place-names in Valtellina (or
> Valtline, as they prefer to write) hosted by invitation in the Monograph
> Series of I.D.E.V.V. (Institute for Dialectology and Ethnogaphy of
> Valtellina and Valchiavenna). I can send You privately a copy of its 2009
> thir edition if You want - although I heavily suspect that You'd perceive
> it as "baloney" ;-)... In that case You should label as such the etymology
> of Wien through Slavonic from PIE *Widhh1-u-n-yah2 instead of Windo-bo:na:
> < PIE *Wi-n-d-o-bhou[h2]-nah2, since I've seriously proposed that Worms is
> exactly the expected German outcome of *Gwhor-mo-s through Celtic *Gwormo-s
> while Bormio is form *Bhor[H]-m-yo-, as other place-names nearby show
> etymologically distinct dublets)
> It seems to me highly appropriate that such an Authority as Pieri looks
> attractive, especially to You (and to me too!). What I fail to understand
> is why should Barga etc. necessarily imply the PIE non-marked zero-grade
> that emerges as Celtic *brig- (from a levelling of the PIE paradigm
> *bhe:rg'h-: *bhrg'h-), but not the likewise regular and topographically not
> less justified collective *bho:rg'h-.

Without seeing your book, I will not label it "baloney".

What I fail to understand is why you should invoke an /o:/-grade in the first place, unless it is a mere red herring intended to distract attention from the straightforward analysis of Ligurian toponyms in Barg- as reflecting Lig. *barg-, equivalent to Celt. *brig- and Gmc. *burg-, from PIE *bHr.g^H-.

> Since You have invoked the linguistic giant Kretschmer, one should
> evaluate his theory for what it is: the reconstruction of a lost
> Indo-European language on the basis of - for what is relevant here - just a
> couple of names, viz. Aquae Bormiae* and debelis. His objection to Gaulish
> *bormo- is too optimistic in its negativity, because it treats a
> Restsprache as a Groszcorpussprache. The only possible Gaulish attestation
> of *bormo- could be the disputed form Bormo-: they cannot be used as
> evidence, but the same must be stated for Bormo- as evidence for an alleged
> Ligurian outcome of *Gwhor-mo-! This is nevertheless possible, but then You
> have 200 (not just two!) place-names, between the Alps and Liguria, that
> clearly testify to the completely regular development in situ from PIE
> to Continental Celtic in Cisalpine Gaul. Only very rare
> not-still-completely-p-Celtic spots can be detected here and there (a
> famous instance is Palaeoligurian Porcobera; another one can be Piario
> [Bergamo] < Orobic *pla:rios = Celtic *La:rios 'lake Como', Welsh llawr).

In Kretschmer's view, Ligurian was not a lost language, but recorded in the inscription of Ornavasso; the language was later designated "Lepontic" by Danielsson to avoid controversy over whether or not it was Celtic. Not only K. but Pederson, Dottin, Vetter, Whatmough, and other scholars agreed that Lepontic is not Celtic.

And unless you have a comprehension problem, you know that K. provided additional evidence: *Bormita, the gods Bormanus, Bormana, Bormanicus, etc. His paper does not reconstruct a whole language on the basis of two place-names, as your rhetoric implies. Perhaps you should move to the U.S. and become a Republican talk-radio host.

> I leave unreplied Your amusing humour about de Bernardo Stempel's - for
> me still convincing - etymology of Ingauni; if You have stronger
> counterarguments, please state them explicitly, this is the right place to
> do it. Same for the recommended "full day-killer treatment", where I'll
> escape the trap of joking about those who kill a day, since I'm perfeclty
> aware that Kilday is in the majority of cases an Anglicization of Gaelic
> Mac Giolla Deághaidh 'Son of the Servant of Goodwin' (deagh- 'good' + ádh
> 'luck, fate'), itself a highly intriguing etymological question, isn't it?

Some of us Kildays are still waiting for the good luck. Anyhow, it appears to me that your knowledge of Celtic etymology has been put to an ill use in Liguria. Evidently you are one of the Super Mario Brothers, belonging to Mario Alinei's brotherhood of palaeolithic continuitists, and your mind was made up years ago that no prehistoric linguistic replacement occurred. Therefore, your toponomastic program is the mere drone-work of inventing conceivable (not even plausible) Celtic etymologies for all place-names where Celts are historically known to have lived, and if you get stuck with something like Porcobera, you defy established Celtic studies and invent an "archaic Celtic" which retained initial /p/ right up to Roman times and beyond.

I do not have a convincing etymology for Ingauni, but that does not make Patrizia's punk-rock 'Tattooed Ones' better than nothing. Serious etymologists know their limitations. You do not, since you have already bragged that you can Celticize any place-name I throw at you. Your methodology does TOO MUCH, but I doubt that anyone can convince you of the folly of that.

DGK