Re: Greek psephas/knephas/dnophos/zophos: linked?

From: Torsten
Message: 69417
Date: 2012-04-23

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > > Yes, if you knew it was borrowed from an IE language. But you
> > > > don't. The proper way to state your proposal is to say it's a
> > > > proposal which might be true if Georgiev's Pelasgian existed
> > > > and if had ph for PIE p.
> >
> > > Your skepticism is shared by many historical linguists, who are
> > > reluctant to admit the existence of *substrate* languages.
> >
> > What is this BS about my 'skepticism' wrt. substrate languages? I
> > have been referring to hypothetical substrate languages all the
> > time. Do you even read what I write?
> >
> What's your problem then?

No U.
Although I keep referring to substrate languages, you claim that I am skeptic about them. You are either confused or deliberately trying to sabotage the debate.


> > Goddammit! I repeat: How is Georgiev's Pelasgian relevant to
> pséphas etc? You know, Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian?
> >
> As I said before, because it has a voiceless aspirated /pH/
> corresponding to PIE series I instead of voiceless /p/ like in
> *native* Greek.

Okay, so you maintain pséphas etc are from Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian.


> > > As regarding Pelasgian, I've just consulted Windekens (1952):
> > > "Le Pélasgique. Essai sur une langue indo-européenne
> > > préhellenique" and I've found some of the proposed etymologies
> > > to be reasonable, while other are incorrect.
> >
> > Why are you now quoting Windekens? I thought we were talking about
> > Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian? Showing IE-ness is not
> > enough then.
> >
> because Windekens gives more detailed etymologies than Georgiev.

Of what? Of Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian? Or of various non-Greek words in Greek?

> > > Greek bólinthos 'wild bull' < IE *bhel- 'to swell'
> > > presumably identified as foreign by the supposedly Anatolian
> > > -inthos, thus not Thracian
> >
> According to these authors, Thracian had *-intH- from IE *-ent-.

Which authors? Georgiev? Windekens? Both? More?

> > > Greek khrónos 'time' < IE *(s)ker- 'to cut'
> > Unconvincing.
> >
> Have you got a better alternative?

No, but I'm still not convinced.

> > > Greek phelleús 'rocky terrain' < IE *pels- 'rock, crag'
> > German Fels, but French falaise. Irregular, thus not necessarily
> > IE.
> >
> The important thing is /pH/ instead of /p/.

The important thing is that the irregularities between German and French makes IE-ness dubious.

> > > Greek púndax 'bottom of a vessel' < IE *bhudh-no- ~ native
> > > puthme:n 'bottom, base'
> > irregular, and
> > UEW
> > 'puntз (~ -ksз) 'Boden, Grund' Finno-Permian
> > Tscher. KB pə^ndaš, J pŭndaš, (Beke: FUF 22: 107) JP
> > pŭntakš 'Boden (KB JP U B), Grund (KB JP U)' |
> > wotj. S pides, K pə^des, (Wichm.) G pîdes 'Boden, Grund' |
> >
> Very interesting. Do you know somebody whose name I don't want to
> mention proposed there was an IE-satem substrate in Saami?

Cap'n Haddock? I recall he did, but these data point to something wider.

> > > Greek púrgos 'tower' < IE *bhºrgh- (actually a
> > > Vasco-Caucasian Wanderwort)
> >
> > thus not IE
> >
> But this refers to the ultimate origin,
and therefore weakens claims of IE-ness.

> as you've got also Germanic
> *burg- and Celtic *briga-.

And Arabic burj.

> > > Greek términthos 'terebinth' < IE *deru- 'tree, oak'
> > Anatolian -inthos. "tree" + suffix? Unconvincing.
> >
> Any alternative?

I'll have to take that back, since
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistacia_terebinthus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistacia_palaestina
'The terebinth is mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (or Old Testament), where the Hebrew word "elah" (plural "elot") is used, although the word is sometimes translated as "oak". (The Hebrew word "alon" means oak, and the words may be related. The two kinds of trees usually grow together.)'
thus "oak" ~ "terebinth" doesn't seem too far-fetched

> > > Greek túmbos 'tomb' ~ native táphos 'tomb' < IE *dhºmbh-
> > > (actually a VC loanword)
> > > so not IE; more likely related to the various "darkness" words.
> >
> > Not really. This is actually a root 'hill, bank' > 'burial mound'.

Which means you claim that.

> > > Anyway, a large part of the Pre-Greek substrate (which I must
> > > insist it can't be attributed to a single language as Beekes do)
which you think can't be attributed to a single language

> > > isn't of IE origin, but at least a part of it is related to
> > > Etruscan. For example Greek ksánthos 'yellow, blonde' can be
> > > linked to Etruscan zamathi 'gold' (/z/ = [ts]). This is why I'd
> > > prefer to keep the name "Pelasgian" for the Etruscan-related
> > > substrate and Thracian for the IE substrate described by
> > > Georgiev et al.
> >
> > No, you don't.
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/69332
> > 'pséphas must be a "Pelasgian" (a variety of Thracian) loanword, '
> >
> I've got the right to change my previous definition, haven't I?

Without saying so? And change it back again, without saying so (see above:
Torsten: 'How is Georgiev's Pelasgian relevant to pséphas etc? You know, Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian?'

Tavi: 'As I said before, because it has a voiceless aspirated /pH/
corresponding to PIE series I instead of voiceless /p/ like in
*native* Greek.'

)?


Like:

Torsten: Do you maintain X?

Tavi: Yes, it is the truth!

Torsten: Do you maintain not X?

Tavi: Yes, it is the truth!

Torsten: But you can't maintain both X and not X!

Tavi: You are an idiot!


Huh? Is this how you argue where you come from?



Torsten