Re: Greek psephas/knephas/dnophos/zophos: linked?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> What is this BS about my 'skepticism' wrt. substrate languages? I have been referring to hypothetical substrate languages all the time. Do you even read what I write?
>

What's your problem then?

> Goddammit! I repeat: How is Georgiev's Pelasgian relevant to pséphas etc? You know, Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian?
>

As I said before, because it has a voiceless aspirated /pH/ corresponding to PIE series I instead of voiceless /p/ like in *native* Greek.

> > As regarding
> > Pelasgian, I've just consulted Windekens (1952): "Le Pélasgique.
> > Essai sur une langue indo-européenne préhellenique" and I've
> > found some of the proposed etymologies to be reasonable, while other
> > are incorrect.
>
> Why are you now quoting Windekens? I thought we were talking about Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian? Showing IE-ness is not enough then.
>

because Windekens gives more detailed etymologies than Georgiev.

> > Greek bólinthos 'wild bull' < IE *bhel- 'to swell'
> presumably identified as foreign by the supposedly Anatolian -inthos, thus not Thracian
>

According to these authors, Thracian had *-intH- from IE *-ent-.

> > Greek khrónos 'time' < IE *(s)ker- 'to cut'
> Unconvincing.
>

Have you got a better alternative?

> > Greek phelleús 'rocky terrain' < IE *pels- 'rock, crag'
> German Fels, but French falaise. Irregular, thus not necessarily IE.
>

The important thing is /pH/ instead of /p/.

> > Greek púndax 'bottom of a vessel' < IE *bhudh-no- ~ native puthme:n
> > 'bottom, base'
> irregular, and
> UEW
> 'puntз (~ -ksз) 'Boden, Grund' Finno-Permian
> Tscher. KB pə^ndaš, J pŭndaš, (Beke: FUF 22: 107) JP pŭntakš 'Boden (KB JP U B), Grund (KB JP U)' |
> wotj. S pides, K pə^des, (Wichm.) G pîdes 'Boden, Grund' |
>

Very interesting. Do you know somebody whose name I don't want to mention proposed there was an IE-satem substrate in Saami?

> > Greek púrgos 'tower' < IE *bhºrgh- (actually a Vasco-Caucasian Wanderwort)
>
> thus not IE
>

But this refers to the ultimate origin, as you've got also Germanic *burg- and Celtic *briga-.

> > Greek términthos 'terebinth' < IE *deru- 'tree, oak'
> Anatolian -inthos. "tree" + suffix? Unconvincing.
>

Any alternative?

> > Greek túmbos 'tomb' ~ native táphos 'tomb' < IE *dhºmbh-
> > (actually a VC loanword)
> so not IE; more likely related to the various "darkness" words.
>

Not really. This is actually a root 'hill, bank' > 'burial mound'.

> > Anyway, a large part of the Pre-Greek substrate (which I must insist
> > it can't be attributed to a single language as Beekes do) isn't of
> > IE origin, but at least a part of it is related to Etruscan. For
> > example Greek ksánthos 'yellow, blonde' can be linked to Etruscan
> > zamathi 'gold' (/z/ = [ts]). This is why I'd prefer to keep the name
> > "Pelasgian" for the Etruscan-related substrate and Thracian for the
> > IE substrate described by Georgiev et al.
>
> No, you don't.
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/69332
> 'pséphas must be a "Pelasgian" (a variety of Thracian) loanword, '
>

I've got the right to change my previous definition, haven't I?