Re: Greek psephas/knephas/dnophos/zophos: linked?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> You didn't answer the question. How is Georgiev's Pelasgian
> relevant to pséphas etc?
>
> > As I said before, this has to do with the stop system of
> > Thraco-Pelasgian, which according to Georgiev was similar to the
> > Germanic one in what series I was voiceless aspirated. So when Greek
> > /ph/ corresponds to /p/ in other IE languages, this would indicate a
> > Pelasgian borrowing.
>
> Yes, if you knew it was borrowed from an IE language. But you don't. The proper way to state your proposal is to say it's a proposal which might be true if Georgiev's Pelasgian existed and if had ph for PIE p.
>

Your skepticism is shared by many historical linguists, who are reluctant to admit the existence of *substrate* languages. As regarding Pelasgian, I've just consulted Windekens (1952): "Le Pélasgique. Essai sur une langue indo-européenne préhellenique" and I've found some of the proposed etymologies to be reasonable, while other are incorrect. Some examples:

Greek asáminthos 'bath tub' < IE *h2ek^-m-
Greek áph(e)nos 'wealth' ~ Latin opis 'abundance, wealth'
Greek bólinthos 'wild bull' < IE *bhel- 'to swell'
Greek gallía 'bowels' < IE *ghol- 'gall' ~ native khólos 'gall'
Greek ide: 'forest of high trees; wood, forest' < IE *widhu- 'forest'
Greek líthos 'stone' < IE *(s)lei- 'to polish'
Greek khrónos 'time' < IE *(s)ker- 'to cut'
Greek phelleús 'rocky terrain' < IE *pels- 'rock, crag'
Greek púndax 'bottom of a vessel' < IE *bhudh-no- ~ native puthme:n 'bottom, base'
Greek púrgos 'tower' < IE *bhºrgh- (actually a Vasco-Caucasian Wanderwort)
Greek sûs 'pig' ~ native hûs 'pig'
Greek términthos 'terebinth' < IE *deru- 'tree, oak'
Greek therápne: 'residence' ~ native téramnon 'house'
Greek túmbos 'tomb' ~ native táphos 'tomb' < IE *dhºmbh- (actually a VC loanword)

Anyway, a large part of the Pre-Greek substrate (which I must insist it can't be attributed to a single language as Beekes do) isn't of IE origin, but at least a part of it is related to Etruscan. For example Greek ksánthos 'yellow, blonde' can be linked to Etruscan zamathi 'gold' (/z/ = [ts]). This is why I'd prefer to keep the name "Pelasgian" for the Etruscan-related substrate and Thracian for the IE substrate described by Georgiev et al.

I also attribute to the Pelasgian substrate the voiceless aspirated result of the stop series III in Greek and Italic, as the shift voiced > voiceless aspirated is seen in Etruscan. Of course, Thracian must have also interacted with Pelasgian, so words such as púrgos and túmbos might have been borrowed from the latter into the former.

> Don't forget that a 'link', when implying borrowing in two
> languages A and B means either 1. A -> B, 2. B -> A or C -> A, B.
>
> > Who said "borrowing"? IMHO this is common inheritance. To me, IE and
> > Altaic stem from the same phylum.
>
> We're talking psephas/knephas/dnophos/gnophos/zophos now, right?
>

Actually pséphas/zóphos, because I adscribe knéphas/dnóphos/gnóphos to a different (although remotedly related) etymology.

> You didn't say anything other than 'link'. How are we supposed to know what you mean when you couch your proposals in vague terms?
>

I do my best to keep a coherent line on my posts, so I don't have to repeat everything each time.

> > This root would be ultimately related to NEC *h\nitts^wV 'night, evening'.
>
> Related how?
>
> > Either by way of borrowing (in the case the languages involved
> > aren't genetically related) or common inheritance (otherwise).
>
> So words are related either by way of borrowing or by common inheritance. Thank you for enlightening me.
>

If you refer to sound correspondences, *h\nitts\wV > *nekW-t- indicates "centumization".