Re: Greek psephas/knephas/dnophos/zophos: linked?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> > We've got cognates in Indo-Iranian *k^sep- and Hittite ispant-
> > 'night'. But as Greek -ph- corresponds to stop series I instead of
> > series III, pséphas must be a "Pelasgian" (a variety of Thracian)
> > loanword, as in that language series I was voiceless aspirated as in
> > Germanic and Armenian.
>
> They *all* have -ph-, so no reason to let particularly kséphas be Pelasgian, if that's what you mean. And if you mean the whole set, Beekes explicitly refutes that.
>

References, please?

> But since they word most likely is a loan (because of the alternations) historical IE rules are off the table.
>

In the inherited lexicon, Greek voiceless aspirated dcerive from PIE series III (tradtional "voiced aspirated"), but in these words, Greek /ph/ corresponds to series I. This indicates a loanword.

> > There's also the Altaic cognate *dz^ipHu 'evening, darkness'
> > (Tungusic *dz^ip-ku 'to dusk', Japonic *dupu 'evening'), whose
> > sibilant would explain Greek z- in zóphos.
>
> Not necessary, cf. Russian kníga, knyazь, Polish księga, ksiądz. Greek z- was pronounced dz-
>

I don't see your point.

> > Comparison with NEC *h\nitts\wV 'night, evening' (> IE *nekW-t-
> > 'night') suggests the labial stop is the result of the reduction of
> > the affricate+labial glide cluster. This way, Greek knéphas could be
> > straightforwardly from the NEC protoform.
>
> Circular argumentation, inconclusive.
>

I disagree.

> which also takes care of the odd Lithuanian form with d-

 >

> > IMHO This would be explained as a denasalization *n- > *d-.
>
> That's not an explanation. It's not even a proposal since it's the usual way of explaining this unique occurrence (thus weak).
>

I disagree.

> Semantically "darkness" and "cloud" match.
>
> > > That's right, but 'night, evening' has got preference.
>
> What's that supposed to mean? The original set of words under discussion (psephas, knephas, dnophos, zophos, gnophos) all mean "darkness".
>

But you forget the Indo-Iranian, Hittite and Altaic cognates whose meaning is 'night'.