From: Torsten
Message: 69274
Date: 2012-04-07
>Or that vulgar Latin in its time borrowed and adapted the word from *xlop-.
> >Ukrainan choÅóp "serf, peasant",
> >Belorussian cholóp,
> >Old Russian cholopÑ, n. pl. -i, g. pl. -ej
> >(Mosk. Urk. 16.-17. Jhdt., s. Sobolevskij Lekcii 198),
> >Russian - Church Slavonic chlapÑ "servant, slave",
> >Old Bulgarian chlapÑ Î´Î¿Ï ~λοÏ, ο`ικÎÏÎ·Ï (Supr.),
> >Bulgarian chlápe n., chlapák "boy",
> >Serbo-Croat hl`à p g. hl`à pa and hlâp,
> >Slovenian hlâp "boor",
> >Czech, Slovak chlap "fellow, farmer, man",
> >Polish. chÅop,
> >Upper Sorbian khÅop, khÅopc "fellow, chap",
> >Lower Sorbian kÅopc. ||
>
> It is this list of variants the one that drew my attention and
> reminded me that word I was talking of. So, now it is clear to
> me that those who used it regionally, colloquially and slangily
> must have used a loanword either from Bulgarian/Serbian/Croatian
> or from Czech/Slovakian/Ruthenian. (The rendering chl- > shkl-
> also fits, since the chl- cluster is unusual, "exotic", to
> Hungarians and Rumanians. On top of that, in the dialect of the
> region where I used to hear the loan variant, two old Slavic loans
> for "weak & lean", slab, and for "lard; bacon" släninä respectively
> are pronounced with an additional fictive -k-: sclab /sklab/ and
> skläninä /skl&-'ni.../, perhaps a relic of the vulgar Latin sclavus,
> sclavinus.
> This phenomenon has almost vanished in the latestVollstrecker?
> decades and is unknown to the rest of the Romanian speaking world.)
>
> But what would be then the *semantic* intermediary from the Slavic
> meanings to the German judiciary meaning of Schöffe? Perhaps only
> the specialized meaning "someone who helps, a servant, a bailiff".
> It is this the older sense of a Schöffe (for centuries) prior to
> the modern meaning ("a judge's assistant; juror").
> Well, it might fit. You've made a discovery; high time this wasOh, that can wait. It's still just a proposal. ;-)
> included in dictionaries. :)
> >or "castrated servant" (Oštir Archiv 36, 444, Sobolovskij RFV.Da. hjælp
>
> Aha, sort of an overlapping chlop- + skopets.
>
> >Gothic hilpan "help" (Korsch Potanin-Festschr. 537, against it
> >Endzelin c. 1. 42).
>
> Is this already generally acknowledged? I mean, whether Germanic
> help/hilp/hülp/helf/hilf/hülf is the origin of all those
> chlop-/chlap-/cholp- variants. (Hilfsarbeiter: *chloporob. :-))
> >further German Schalk (Brückner EW. 180)I remember him.
>
> Oh! This is interesting. My dictionary says "OHG scalc, Goth.
> skalks ´´Knecht, Diener, Unfreier`` (i.e. "servant"; cf. OFrank.
> mareskalk > marshall; in today's German it would render a perfect
> Mährenschalk, only that Schalk today rather means a "joking person".
> Cf. the saying "Er hat den Schalk im Nacken.") And the dictionary
> adds: "__weitere Herkunft unklar__". (In German onomastics, there
> are whole lotta Schalk, Gottschalk etc. E.g., former East-Germany's
> chief coordinator of the hard-currency transactions of the commie
> regime had the name Schalck-Golodkowsky.)
>
> >Greek ÏκÏÎ»Î¿Ï "pointed pole" (Loewenthal Archiv 37, 386).Yes, it's a mess.
>
> This is related with Slavic stl(u)p- (also borrowed by Hungarian:
> oszlop; perhaps cölöp /tsölöp/ as well). (Here again the "unsure"
> rendering of sk- > s(t)l-, VslV- and the like.)
> As for those lists containing /kel-, klüpt-, klept-/, they suggestPerhaps a convicted thief (thus slave, they had no jails)?
> that the "servant" was also a "thief" (who concealed stolen goods)?
> (Heaving read the list with those Romance, Greek, Celtic etc. words,Ah, you want to discuss calles and Hohlwege? Look what I found:
> I ask myself whether this possibly opens an additional path in
> speculating on the etymology of Rumanian cälätor "traveler". In
> Protorumanian times, a "cälätor" was some kind of traveler, merchant
> and guide. Up to now, one had speculated on calle (syn for via
> "road, way") and caballus (that rendered in Rumanian cal "horse" &
> cälare "mounted" & a cäläri "to ride a horse, donkey" etc.). But
> those calators in early medieval times must also have been smugglers
> a la carte! In which case celator, cellator all of a sudden would
> fit! : I've read that those Protoromanian or Vlach cälätors were the
> genuine masters of the hidden passes and roads throughout of the
> Balcans, a thing relevant even in the contexts of wars in which
> the Byzantine Empire and other contemporary powers were implied
> more than 1,000 years ago.)