Re: Schöffe I

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgsoo1" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:

>
> >>of the judge:
> >>'dieser sinn braucht nicht der steine unter den alten linden, um
> >>gutes recht zu schöpfen.' Immermann Münchh. 4, 134.
> >>meanwhile this sense has become generally mostly forgotten and
> >><schöpfen> in this connection is thus mostly understood as
> >>"haurire", so the 'recht schöpfen' means "take, fetch 'recht' (the
> >>law, what's right) from somewhere" and is now no more said of the
> >>legislator and rechtsprecher "law speaker", but of the plaintiff
>
> This figurative schöpfen's kinship: Engl. scoop, MDutch schope,
> OHG skepfen. Also Schaufel (engl. shovel), Schippe, Schaub;
>
> Idea: to take/gather a liquid; a powder or gravel-like quantitiy.
>
> But:
>
> _schieben_ < OHG scioban, goth (af)skiuban; PIE *skeubh- "werfen,
> schieben" (throw, push)
>
> OTOH:
> cf. _Schöpfkelle_ (ladle, scoop, dipper)
> cf. Schaff, Scheffel, Schoppen
> -------------------------------------------
> cf. _schöpfen_ (trans. vb.)
>
> (1)"mit einem Gefäß oder mit der hohlen Hand
> aufnehmen, heben" (Flüssigkeit);
> (2) Atem schöpfen "tief, bewusst atmen;
> (fig.) Hoffnung, Mut, Vertrauen schöpfen; <-----------
> (fig.) Verdacht schöpfen (to suspicionate)
> (fig.) Kraft schöpfen
> (3) (Jägersprache) das Wild schöpft "trinkt"
>
> < mhd. schepfen, scheffen < ahd. scephen, zu
> OHG scaph "Schaff, Gefäß", ursprünglich
> "Ausgehöhltes", zu idg. *(s)kebh-, (s)kabh-,
> (s)kap- "schaben"
>
> (ausschöpfen: complete, the entire quantity; fig.: use
> all possibilities, & erschöpfen // erschöpft "exhausted; very
> tired")
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> _Schöpfer_ "Gefäß zum Schöpfen, Schöpfkelle,
> Schöpfeimer, [Schöpflöffel; cf. Schöpfrad
> "Wasserrad mit Zellen"; Schöpfwerk "Vorrichtung
> zum mechanischen Heben von Wasser]
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> (das) _Schaff_ (oberdt.) "großes, offenes Holzgefäß,
> Zuber, Bottich, Waschfaß, Schrank < ahd. skaph,
> skaf "offenes Gefäß, Faß", zu idg. *skab-
> "schnitzen, schaben"; verwandt mit Schoppen,
> schaffen, Schuppe, schaben, Schaft
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> _Schaffel_ (österr.) kleines Schaff
>
> (der) _Scheffel_ "altes Hohlmaß, landschaftlich
> sehr verschiedener Größe: 23 - 223 L; altes
> Flächenmaß, so viel Boden, wie mman mit einem
> Scheffel voll Körner besäen kann; offenes
> Holzgefäß, Bottich [hence = Schaff]
> - etwas in Scheffeln einheimsen/erlangen/gewinnen
> "in großen Mengen"
> - es regnet wie mit Scheffeln "sehr stark" [cats
> and dogs]
> - er stellt sein Licht nicht unter den Scheffel
> "er bringt seine Fähigkeiten gern zur Geltung"
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> _scheffeln_ "mit dem Scheffel aufhäufen"; (heute fig.)
> "zusammenraffen, in großen Mengen erlangen, gewinnen"
> [to garner, gather, collect] Geld scheffeln
> das Getreide scheffelt "gibt viele Körner"
> < ahd. sceffil; zu ahd. scaf "Gefäß für Flüssigkeiten,
> Kornmaß"; zu idg. *skab- "schaben, schnitzen",
> verwandt mit Schaff, schaffen, -schaft, schöpfen
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> (der) _Schoppen_ "Flüssigkeitsmaß, etwa 1/2 L; (im
> Gastgewerbe) 1/4 L (Bier od. Wein); (lanschaftl.
> auch) Schuppen; (schweizerisch) Saugflasche
> < lothringisch chopenne < afrz. chopine < mnd.
> schope, mhd. schuofe "Schöpfkelle des Maurers und
> Brauers"; zu Schaff
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> (der) _Schaft_ < ahd. scaft "Lanzenschaft, Lanze;
> Stiel, Stab, Stange", ursprünglich "ein geglätteter,
> entrindeter Ast bzw. junger Baum"; zu: schaben.
>
> [NB participles: geschabt; geschafft; geschaffen;
> geschöpft; gescheffelt]
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> _schaben_ < ahd. scaban "kratzen, scharren, radieren",
> engl. shave "schaben", got. skaban "scheren", zu
> idg. *skab-, *skap-, *skabh- "schaben", verwandt u.a.
> mit Schaft, Schuppe, Schaff, schaffen, Schoppen
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> cf. neo-Greek skáfi; Rumanian scafä & cäu$
>
> cf. Lat. scabo, scabere "kratzen" (vgl. schaben)
> / scaber, scabra, scabrum / scabies / scabritia
> cf. Lat. ex/cavo, -are / cavus,-a,-um (*covus)
> cavatus "hohl"
>
> cf. Gr. koilos < *kofilos & kóoi, kófiloi
> cf. dt. hohl < ahd hol
>
> NB:
>
> Schäffler/Scheffler: South-German for Fassbinder, Fassküfer
> (Küfner, Kübler; Küpper [cooper!]), Böttcher
>
> >rättsskipning "the application of law by the courts"
>
> In German, this is in general "Recht sprechen" and "Rechtsprechung"
> (but Rechtsspruch "decision by a court" = gerichtliches Urteil), as
> well as "Rechtsfindung, Rechtspflege"
>
> >German <rechtschaffen> "righteous" etc
>
> And: sich oder jemandem sein Recht verschaffen
>
> >is not the noun <reht>, but the adjective <reht> "right", used
> >adverbially, ie. "rightly"
>
> Not only this, but also in the sens of "quite" and "very, highly,
> utterly"! (recht herzlich, recht schönen Dank, recht gern, ich
> weiß nicht recht, du kommst gerade recht, recht gescheit, recht
> gut, recht hungrig)
>
> >thus skipa/schaffen and all its cognates in those expressions
> >should be understood as just one metaphorical step from its
> >original sense of "divide, split up; take out the bad stuff",
> >and doing that "rightly", ie doing it right.
>
> The German development seems to have been RATHER from the
> figurative usage of material schöpfen ("take out liquids", i.e.
> not "to create"), and to have had repeated encounters with
> its kin schaffen. NB: at the same time, both schöpfen and schaffen
> also have the meaning "to create" (cf. schöpferisch, schaffend,
> kreativ).
>
> Also note the following two aspects, which are crucial in
> the usage of derivates from this family in German:
>
> (1) the connotations in the figurative usage of the prefixed verbs
> __ausschöpfen and erschöpfen__: judges and Schöffen must
> "ausschöpfen" and "erschöpfen" all _legal_ possibilities as well
> as interpretations in order to get to the appropriate judgment,
> i.e. in order to "Recht verschaffen".
>
> (2) the German words that led to the derivate Schöffe ("member of
> the jury") already had in earlier periods the additional meaning...
> ... "ordnen" and "anordnen"! An order issued by the court also
> means "Recht verschaffen, Recht sprechen" (i.e. Jurisprudenz).
>
> >?ung. szép 'schön, (dial.) kellemes, kedvezö (SzamSz.), jó; >angenehm, günstig gut, (dial.) derék, nagy, hatalmas; stattlich, >groß, mächtig' (SzamSz., SzegSz.).
>
> ["from "jó, angenehm to mächtig", the equivalents are exaggerations:
> because szép actually does not mean all this, but it is used as
> an "enhancer", just like "recht; quite; very; pretty; highly"
> attached to an adjective. And I suppose it is a German calque:
> schön, for various situations where in German one also uses
> schön, as an adverb, instead of sehr, recht and äußerst, i.e.
> very, quite, pretty, utter/ly.]
>
> [In the world of the steppe peoples, the smith was an important
> person, but his rank wasn't as high as that of the khan/kagan;
> rather that of the tarkhan. I doubt the connotation "handsome",
> as well as the connotation "judge". OTOH, there was the con-
> notation of "medicine man, doctor".]
>
> A smith a... "handsome, pretty, beautiful, nice" person?!
> And what can a Schöffe (i.e. not a judge, but only his
> assistant) have in common with a "handsome smith"?
>
> >From the concluded sense of "skilled" may easily have developed
> >the senses of "master, smith" in Finnish and Saami, and
> >"beautiful" in Hungarian; cf. Hungarian ügyes "skilled" ~
> >(dial.) "pretty"
>
> Where's the link betw. ügyes and Schöffe?! (There is an indirect,
> incidental, link: schaffen "to create", but only semantically.)
> The initial morpheme ügy means "affair". Ügyes = ügy + the suffix
> -es [eS]. A verbatim translation would give "geschäftig" in
> German (even the pejorative South-German "G'schaftlhuber"; but
> in Hungarian ügyes has no pejorative connotation, it simply
> means the opposite of "awkward & all fingers thumbs".)
>
> >Mansi (Ahlqv.) mašter "master" ~ "gewandt",
> >Khanty (547) DN máśtar "master" ~ "skilled in something"
>
> These are connected with Meister, master, magister; I doubt that
> they are old Uralic words. Hungarian also has similar words:
> mester ['maeStaer] "Meister" & mesteséges "masterful, skilful;
> meisterhaft; elaborate".
>
> >The derivation of the Hungarian word from
> >Chuvash šep "beautiful" (Róna-Tas: NytudÉrt. 58 : 174)
> >is improbable, since the Chuvash word is found only in a
> >small area.
>
> So what? The same meaning, almost the same phonetics, and
> Chuvash are Semi-Hungarians who never left their Volga territory,
> unlike the ancestors of Hungarians who settled down in Pannonia
> (coming from an area where there are Chuvashia, Mari-El,
> Bashkortostan, and Vladimir, Suzdal & al. former places of
> medieval "GarDariki").
>
> The same Róna-Tas points out that the names of at least two modern
> Chuvash populations, Yurmatu and Yanay (sp?), are very close to
> the Hungarian (Kürt)gyarmat and Jenö tribes, mentioned by emperor
> Constantine Porphyrogenitus ("De administrando imperii") as
> Kourtougermatos and Genach.
>
> >F. Mészaros (NyK 65:178, s. auch PD 2201) has listed the Hungarian
> >word with Khanty (835) V süγ, Trj. siγ "beauty"
>
> Plausible.
>
> >V sükəŋ "beautiful, good looking (person)"
>
> This rather resembles Gypsy (Romani) shukar "beautiful".
>
> >would have given *szëvëp or *szép, *szíp.
>
> At least, modern Hungarian does have szép and (dialectal) szíp
> [se:p & si:p].
>

Look what I've found:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szkop
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szkop
as derogatory term for Germans
= Scheffe?
And why pick on Swabians, of all German peoples? The Sueui/Swabians haven't been near the Poles for the last two millenia.


Torsten



Torsten