Re: Vasco-Caucasian and the comparatine method [was: Stacking up on

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> UEW:
> 'pinta 'FlÃ¤che, OberflÃ¤che' ["surface"] Finno-Permian
> Finn. pinta 'De superficie, nivel de la superficie, la superficie de la piel, concha'
> (> lapp. N bid'de -dd--bin'de -nd- 'sap, sappy wood, slab',
> bin'da -nd- 'fat (on living animals)',
> K Kld. pindtE, Ko. Not. pÄ`DtE 'Splint');
> est. pind (Gen. pinna) 'De superficie, la capa superior (albura, cÃ©sped usw.)' |
> mord. (Paas.: FUF 6:120) E pondakÅ¡ 'zottig', M ponda 'Cuerpo, el cuerpo' |
> wotj. G ped pal 'Ã¤uÃere Seite' (pal 'Seite'), K pedlo 'hinaus, heraus', K pedlon 'auÃen, drauÃen', (Wichm.) G pedlo 'hinaus, heraus'.
>
> Lapp. N bid'de ist eine frÃ¼here, bin'de, bin'da eine spÃ¤tere Entlehnung aus dem Finn. Zur Lautentsprechung mord. o (<*i) s. E. Itkonen: FUF 29:301.
>
> Zum BedeutungsverhÃ¤ltnis finn. 'OberflÃ¤che, FlÃ¤che' ~ 'Haut' ~ mord. 'KÃ¶rper, Leib' vgl. finn. iho 'Haut' ~ est. ihu 'Leib'~ mord. E joÅ¾o, M joÅ¾, joÅ¾a 'die Ã¤uÃere Haut; OberflÃ¤che'; wotj. vil 'OberflÃ¤che' ~ vil-tir 'KÃ¶rper, Leib'.
>
> Tscher. KB panÎ´aÅ¡, U ponÎ´aÅ¡ 'Bart' (Paasonen: FUF 6:120; Wichmann: FUF 12:134; Jacobsohn, ArUgrof. 45; Heke: 22:107; Collinder, JukUr. 105; Toivonen: UAJb. 24/3 4:45) kann wegen des Vokalismus der ersten Silbe (KB a, U o < *a oder *o) und wegen der Bedeutung nicht hier eingeordnet werden.'
>

Very interesting stuff, although IMHO Mordvin *pond- doesn't belong here.

> Now why didn't Starostin think of that? Not because it would ruin his inheritance scheme?
>

I'm afraid this is a general problem, not only Starostin's. I've also detected a number of Vasco-Caucasian loanwords in Uralic.

> Perhaps we could even include Germanic *bind- etc, cf
> http://woerterbuchnetz.de/cgi-bin/WBNetz/wbgui_py?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lemid=GB07340
> 'BINDE, f. fascia, ahd. pintÃ¢ (Graff 3, 136), mhd. binde (Ben. 1, 131b), poln. binda, von leinwand [canvas] oder seide [silk],' ("bandage, compress etc") if thought of as replacing some natural membrane.
>
> Also German entbinden (also) "deliver (child)", ie unwrap it.
>

I don't think so (see below).

> UEW itself doesn't include this:
> 'piÅka 'gespannt, straff, fest; gespannter Zustand' FW
> ?[Finn. pinka 'spÃ¤nning, spÃ¤nt tilsstÃ¤nd; Spannung, gespannter Zustand', (SKES dial.) pinkeÃ¤ 'ahdas, tiukka; eng, straff, olla pingollaan 'gespannt sein', pingotta- 'la tensiÃ³n en ese lapso, apretar fuertemente';
> est. ping (Gen. pinna, pinnu) 'dÃ¼nnere Stelle im Garn, Stelle, wo eine straff angezogene Schnur einschneidet, Straffsein, Spannung', pinnul, pinnal 'tensarlo, tensa'] |
> ?lapp. N bÃ¢g'ge -gg- 'very much swollen or distended objeet; one who is smali and fat, a small animal (esp. reindeer) with large belly', (SKES) I pagge 'lyhyt ja paksu (esine t. ihminen); isovatsainen ihminen; kurz und dick (Gegenstand od. Mensch); barrigÃ³n Mensch' |
> ? tscher. KB piÅÎ³ÉÎ´É, U peÅÎ³É^Î´É 'duro, firme, fuerte (KB U), unbeugsam (z.B. Baum, Eisen, Mensch) (U), geizig (KB)', B peÅÎ³É^Î´e 'fest, stark'.
>

The Saami word doesn't belong here.

> The fact that UEW keeps the two entries separate in spite of an excellent

semantic match indicates a loan from elsewhere (where they would be 'only one
entry').

>

IMHO the meaning 'belly' is unrelated to 'bind' but to 'container, vessel'. This is why Basque ontzi (untzi in Northern dialects) 'ship; vessel' also means 'stomach' in some dialects. There's also the compound umeontzi (G, L, R) 'cow's womb', umunzi (*LN), imuntzi (Z) 'womb', with ume 'child, cub'.