Re: Basque mendi 'mountain'

> Basque mendi comes from Paleo-Basque *bendi, with regular
> nasalization of *b- due to the following nasal. This is an old
> substrate root *pant-/*pent- also found in toponymy as *pend-/*penn-
> (e.g. Pennines, Apennines), as well as in Celtic *bendo- 'peak,
> top' and Germanic *pint-/*pinn- 'point'.

John Bengtson at http://tinyurl.com/837q4xq reconstructs Proto-Basque *mendi (not **bendi) ‘mountain’ and cites one of the greatest Burushaski specialists, the late Hermann Berger, who compared the Bq. lexeme to Bur. bun(d)- ‘mountain pasture, mountain grove, boulder; wild, mountain’. This is what Berger writes in this respect:

http://tinyurl.com/7myhhvb
http://tinyurl.com/7473fgm

He, thus, thought that Bur. bun, pl. bundo (Verčik dialect: bonju) ‘rock, mountain’ < *mend-o ~ Bq. mendi ‘mountain’. Hence, there was no initial /b/ in the Proto-Vasco-Caucasian(-Burushaski) word, if there ever was one.

> The substrate root *pant-/*pent- is found in Hispanic and Italian
> toponymy meaning either ‘mountain’ or ‘ravine’ (e.g. South Italian
> pentuma)...

The medieval Italian substrate words panta ~ penta ~ pente ~ pentuma ~ pentoma ~ pendova ~ pentema ~ pendeme ~ pendima ‘large boulder, rock’ (in some areas) or ‘sloping ground, steep slope, ravine’ (in other areas), occurring in toponyms as either free-standing words or members of a compound, are found in dialects of Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily, Liguria, Latium, Lucania, and Apulia. Some Italian linguists have posited a “Mediterranean” substrate word *penta-/*panta- as the etymon of all such terms. Cf. also Etruscan penth(u)na ‘cippus stone’ (?). I see that an Italian author has even thrown in the Greek oronym Pindos.

I personally vote for *penta-/*panta- as a substrate, that is, non-IE word used in Italian toponymy, but I would divorce it from Basque mendi (see above).

Regards,
Francesco

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
>
> At 4:54:14 PM on Friday, March 30, 2012, Tavi wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "bmscotttg"
> > <bm.brian@> wrote:
>
> >> The Irish word means both 'hill' and 'open space'. It can
> >> mean 'racecourse', 'assembly', 'meeting place in
> >> general', 'square', 'market place'. If at some point the
> >> emphasis in Insular Celtic came to be on the use as a
> >> place of assembly rather then the elevation, a shift to
> >> 'valley' would not be all that remarkable.
>
> > I think 'open space' is secondary to 'valley',
>
> Plainly unlikely, given the PIE etymology.
>
> [...]
>
> > Given that the substrate root *pant-/*pent- is found in
> > Hispanic and Italian toponymy meaning either 'mountain' or
> > 'ravine' (e.g. South Italian pentuma),
>
> It isn't a given. There may be such a toponymic element;
> I've not checked. It doesn't matter: at best you're giving
> superficial resemblances precedence over etymological
> argument without actually addressing the latter. This isn't
> linguistics.
>
> If there actually is such a toponymic element, one that can
> be consistently identified, one should certainly consider
> what, if any, relationship it might bear to the Celtic
> words. Such an investigation, however, would have to be
> carried out by competent linguists and toponymists, not by
> an arrogant fringy.
>
> > my guess is it was borrowed into P-Celtic *pant- and
> > Q-Celtic (Goidelic) *kWant-. Of course, the time of
> > borrowing must postdate Common Celtic, which it already
> > had *bando-/*bendo- 'peak top'.
>
> Like many others, I'm not convinced that P-Celtic and
> Q-Celtic are genuine subfamilies.
>
> >>> Incredible!
>
> >> Rather less so than some of your stretches.
>
> > You're exaggerating as usual.
>
> Not even slightly.
>
> >>>>> Also interesting is Old Irish imm-cella 'surrounds',
> >>>>> from Goidelic *kWal-na 'to go around', a doublet of
> >>>>> Celtic *Fal-na 'to approach, to drive' (Old Irish
> >>>>> ad-ella).
>
> >>>> No, *kWelh1- and *pelh2- are clearly different.
>
> >>> Only in the traditional model. But macro-comparativists
> >>> such as Bomhard link them.
>
> >> I doubt very much that Bomhard links them at the PIE level.
>
> > It depends on what you consider as PIE, [...]
>
> The same thing that all but a few eccentrics do.
>
> [snip more nonsense]
>
> Brian
>