From: Torsten
Message: 68786
Date: 2012-03-06
>Actually I was the one who mentioned 'callum' "callus" etc in the first place. You get calluses when your feet get worn.
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > Ernout-Meillet:
> > > > 'callis, -is c.(le genre est flottant comme pour beaucoup de
> > > > noms en -is): piste de troupeau, sentier tracé par les
> > > > animaux; différent à l'origine de se:mita, cf.
> > > > Vg., Ae. 9,383, rara per occultos lucebat semita calles;
> > > > Serv. Ae. 4,405; Isid., Diff.1,539; Orig. 15,16,10.
> > > > Puis toute espèce de sentier ou de route. -
> > > > Ancien, technique. M.L.1520.
> > > > Faussement rapproché de callum, callus "Ä callÅ pedum" par les
> > > > anciens.
> > > > Dérivé: callitÄnus (inscr.).
> > > > Il est vain de rapprocher
> > > > irl. caill "forêt",
> > > > lit. ke~lias "chemin", ´
> > > > serbe klánac "défilé",
> > > > trop éloignés, les uns par la forme, les autres par le sens.'
> > >
> > > I see no reason to discard the connection between <callis> and
> > > <callum>, even if "les anciens" were off the mark in their
> > > details. A path has a hard surface from the trampling of humans
> > > and cattle, and a blister also has a hard surface.
> >
> > As I said.
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/68615
>
> You said 'worn'. I am arguing for 'surface-hardened' which is a
> different matter.
> > > > Pokorny:Actually with 'semantically similar' I was referring to
> > > > 'kalni- "enger Durchgang, enger Pfad"?
> > > > Lat. callis "Bergpfad, Waldweg, Gebirgstrift';
> > > > bulgar. klánik "Raum zwischen Herd und Wand",
> > > > serb. klánac, Gen. klánca "EngpaÃ",
> > > > sloven. klánÉc "Hohlweg, Gebirgsweg, Rinnsal eines Baches,
> > > > Dorfgasse",
> > > > Äech. klanec "Bergsattel, PaÃ".
> > > > WP. I 356 f., WH. I 140 f.'
> > >
> > > Latin <callis> goes better under Pokorny's *kal-(1) 'hart',
> > > IEW 523-4. I suspect that the original root was verbal,
> > > probably *keh2l- 'to harden the surface of'. The original
> > > meaning is well preserved in Slavic, e.g. Czech <kaliti> 'to
> > > temper, case-harden'. Russian <kalitI> 'to heat, roast'
> > > suggests an intermediate Old Russ. sense 'to toast, harden the
> > > surface of (a piece of bread)'.
> >
> > Semantically similar to the 'sharp' root.
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62531
>
> This is a 55-gallon drum of worms. It is not possible to respond to
> such an enormous agglomeration of material in one post.
> > BTW enjoy:It's called
> > UEW:
> > 'kalke 1 'hart' FW [Finno-Volgaic]
> > Finn. kalki (Gen. kaljen)
> > 1. 'strävt, hårt föremål; rauher, harter Gegenstand',
> > 2. 'vanlottad person, vanlottad, olycklig; stiefmütterlich
> > behandelte Person, stiefmütterlich behandelt, unglücklich',
> > (SKES dial.) kalkea, kalkkea 'suuri, järeä; pirteä, reipas; kova,
> > kuuluva (ääni); groÃ, grob; munter, frisch; hart, hörbar (Laut)';
> > est. (dial.) kalk (Gen. kalgi) 'ein zerlumptes, schlecht
> > gekleidetes Kind',
> > (SKES) kalk (Gen. kalgi), kalg (Gen. kalje, kale) 'kova,
> > kylmäkiskoinen; liian kova, hauras (rauta); hart, kalt, kühl, zu
> > hart, zerbrechlich, brüchig (Eisen)' |
> > mord. (Paas. : MSFOu. 22:87, 109) E kalgodo, kalgudo, M kalguda
> > 'hart'.
> >
> > Mord. do und da sind Ableitungssuffixe.
> >
> > Anderson, Stud. 289;
> > SKES.'
> >
> > Note the variant gen. kale
>
> Fronting of a dorsal before a front vowel is a common occurrence.
> All that appears to have happened here is something like *kalken >
> *kalgen > *kalje(n) > <kale> in some dialect.
> That it resembles Lat. <callis> is mere coincidence.I wish I had your self-confidence.
> > > Lat. <callum> and <callis> in this view continue zero-gradeUEW also mentions forms with no final velar. The un-unitable mix of forms suggests loan.
> > > formations *k&2l-no'-, *k&2l-ni'-. From the same stem are Welsh
> > > <caill>, Breton <kell> 'testicle' (cf. English slang <rocks>).
> > > Gaulish *caljo-, *calja:wo- 'stone' vel sim. are reflected in
> > > French <chaille> 'concretion, flint' and <caillou> 'pebble'
> > > (from a non-/ka/-fronting dialect).
> >
> > UEW:
> > 'kaľkkз 'Ei; Hoden' FP
> > ??[Finn. (SKES) kalkku (Pl. kalkut) 'mulkku, kives; Hoden';
> > kar. (Gen.: Suomi 1881:88) kalkku (Pl. kalkut)] |
> > ?? syrj. S P koľk, PO kuľk 'Ei (S P PO); Hoden (P)'.
> >
> > Finn. u ist ein Substantivsuffix.
> >
> > Die Zusammenstellung ist nur dann akzeptabel, wenn das syrj.
> > auslautende k die Fortsetzung von *kk in *ľkk ist. Möglicherweise
> > gehört das syrj. Wort mit wotj. S Uf. keľan und syrj. Lu. P keľ
> > 'Hoden' zusammen.
> >
> > Lytkin (VokPerm. 46) und ESK stellen wotj. B kөľөk 'ÑйÑo' hierher.
> > Dieser Beleg ist aus anderen Quellen nicht bekannt; möglicherweise
> > gehört er zu wotj. keľan und syrj. keľ 'Hoden'.'
> >
> > > Matasovic', following Joseph, puts Proto-Celtic *kaleto- 'hard'
> > > (Old Irish <calath>, We. <caled>) with PIE *k^elh{x}- 'to
> > > freeze' (Avestan <sar@...> 'cold', Lithuanian <s^a'lti> 'to be
> > > cold, freeze'. I think however that Pokorny was correct to
> > > place *kaleto- under *kal- 'hard'. It can represent a secondary
> > > participle built to the zero-grade stem of *keh2l-, namely
> > > *k&2l-eto-.
> > >
> > > > The geographical distribution points to an original Venetic
> > > > word. Suetonius' 'silvae callesque' seems to point to some
> > > > connection with "forest", pace Ernout-Meillet.
> > >
> > > Modern Venetian has <cale>, the expected reflex of Lat.
> > > <callem>. I see no good reason to regard <callis> as other than
> > > inherited.
> >
> > How do you explain the Finno-Volgaic forms?
>
> What needs explaining? The Uralic forms involve something like
> *kalk(k)- with two dorsals.
> PIE *keh2l- has no second dorsal. These are two separate roots inI doubt that. Sunken roads can get very old. Being part of trade creates opportunity for loan.
> different groups.
> > The reason I see for thinking this word is local is sociological.Leaving out historical facts, in casu that the Romans were blocked from the Black Sea trade market during the Mithridatic wars and that they most therefore acquired slaves in Romania
> > The calles were in the beginning the roads leading from Aquileia,
> > later any mountain path, or just path in general.
>
> That sounds like an etymological novel, not comparative linguistics.