Re: Substrates in Latin and Germanic

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "guestu5er" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:

>
> >What do you think then of the Finno-Permic matches in

http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/01paik-betr_gen.html

> >UEW (Uralisches Etymologogisches Wörterbuch):
> >'pečз 'unrein; häßlich, garstig' F[inno-]P[ermic]
> >Mord. E pežet', M pičä, pižä 'Sünde' |
> >wotj. S (Wichm., mitg. Uot.: MSFOu.65.: 164) G pož 'trüb,
> >unrein (v. Flüssigkeiten)' |
> >syrj. S SO pež 'unrein, unflätig, häßlich, garstig, schlecht (S),
> >(Wild) Schmutz, Unreinigkeit; поганый, нечистый; погань, скверна
> >(SO)'.
> >
> >Im Mord. fand ein Bedeutungswandel 'unrein, garstig; Schmutz,
> >Unreinheit, Garstigkeit' -> 'Sünde' statt; ebenso im syrj.
> >SO-Dialekt: 'поганый' ~ 'скверна'.
>
> What a curious/funny semantic encounter peccatum - paganus by
> traveling way into the Uralic world! :-)

Vasmer has
'пога´ный 'unrein, ekelhaft, schlecht', пога´н, -а´на, -а´но,
ukr. pohányj 'schlecht, häßlich',
arusз. poganъ 'heidnisch',
abulg. poganъ βάρβαρος, δήμιος, `έθνος (Euch. Sin., Supr.),
poganyni 'Heidin' (Zogr., Mar.),
bulg. pogánec 'Heide, Unreiner' (Mladenov 437),
skr. pògan 'unrein',
sloven. pogân dass.,
čech. slk. pohan 'Heide',
apoln. pogan,
poln. poganin,
osorb. pohan 'Heide'.
Slav. Lehnwörter sind:
lit. pagõnas, lett. pagãns 'Heide',
apreuss. Acc. pl. poganans (s. M-Endz. 3,28 ff.). ||

Alte Entlehnung aus
lat. pāgānus 'ländlich, heidnisch, Landbewohner':
pāgus 'Gau', s.
Meillet Études 185,
Brückner EW. 426,
Romanski JIRSpr. 15, 124ff.,
Skok RES. 7, 193, Schwarz Archiv 41, 129,
G. Meyer IF. 3, 71,
Ngr. Stud. 3, 50 ff.,
Grünenthal Zeitschr. 9,380,
Boháč LF. 35, 443.

Wegen der abweichenden Bed. u. der geograph. Verbreitung ist Vermittlung durch
ngr. παγανός 'bäurisch'
abzulehnen (gegen Sobolevskij RFV. 10,166, Verf. IORJ. 12,2, 226, GrslEt. 153).
Eine Denominativbildung von пога´н ist пога´нить 'verunreinigen', das schwerlich etwas mit
poln. ganić 'schmähen',
čech. haniti
zu tun hat (gegen Matzenauer 68, LF. 7, 175 ff., MiEW. 254).'

> (Hungarian picsa [piča] has no corroborating role here,
> since it has a completely different meaning and a Slavic
> origin. Although in some Catholic Church contexts there
> is some unexpected semantic neighborhood to peccatum and
> Unreinheit. :))
>
> >ÁKE 518;
> >Toivonen: FUF 19:78;
> >ESK.
> >
> >Peccatum?
> >
> >I'd add Germ. Pech, Sw. beck, Da. beg "pitch" (note p/b
> >alternation).
>
> Well, then peccatum - paganus - picula?

At least with the classical interpretation paganus doesn't belong here, since it is supposed to be a loan from Latin paganus "villager", itself derived from 'pagus' "district".

I will interpret your puzzlement as caused by the possibilty hinted at here that "sin" is a pre-Christian concept in Eastern Europe. The long dispute here over whether peccatum "sin" was borrowed from Latin into Celtic might be relevant here, since it it weren't, "sin" would also be pre-Christan in Western Europe.

I am reminded of a phenomenon called here a 'dumme-bøde', "stupid-fine", a 'fine' biker gangs hit people with who they deemed did something stupid and which accumulates interest rapidly. It would be a practical tool for slavers in procuring slaves.

> (Incidentally, in Romanian their counterparts look more as
> lookalikes: päcat - pägân - päcurä. :-) Romanian päcurä "pitch"
> and päcurar "shepherd" went through transformations that gave
> them similar looks as in pecus, pecoris and their reflexes.)
>

There might be a connection with shepherds; I haven't found it yet.


Torsten