Re: Hessen

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > >
> > Equating the medieval and modern Hessen with Tacitus's Chatti
> > involves three phonological problems. The latter presumably
> > represents Germanic *Xatto:z, which has the wrong declension,
> > the wrong internal consonantism, and nothing to umlaut the /a/.
> > If Tacitus had actually known about any ancient Hessen, and
> > their name was native, his term should have been *Chationes.
> > >
> > > Modern <Kassel> apparently continues Latin <castellum>
> > > 'fortress'. The local development -st- > -ss- suggests that
> > > <Hessen> could similarly continue Lat. *hastio:ne:s 'spear-men',
> > > from <hasta> 'spear'. A parallel Gmc. borrowing is seen in Old
> > > English <cempa> 'soldier, warrior' from Lat. <campio:>
> > > '(battle)field-man', in turn from <campus> 'field'.
> > >
> > > Kassel, of course, is well beyond the Rhine. What I propose is
> > > that Roman colonization was under way in Augustan times, and a
> > > fortress was established there. Local warriors were hired as
> > > elite guards for the Roman officials in the area, and were known
> > > as *Hastio:ne:s, since they carried spears. Then Arminius's
> > > attack changed everything, and Augustus in panic ordered the
> > > withdrawal of Romans from farther Germany. But the *Hastio:ne:s
> > > remained in a privileged position among the native military, and
> > > quickly established themselves as the ruling class of the Kassel
> > > area after the Romans left.
> > >
> >
> > There are many problems w what you wrote. First, see:
> >
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36534
>
> I do not find this explanation convincing. It requires a tribe to
> give up its native name in favor of a clumsily Latinized form of the
> name. That would be like Americans calling themselves Melicans
> after the Chinatown pronunciation.

I used to think so too. However
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/13703
it does happen.

> > Also, assuming conn. w hætt OE; hat E; there could also have
> > been a variant related to:
> >
> > cassis cassidis (g) = helmet L;
>
> No such variant is found in the Latin and Greek sources. Of course,
> nothing prevents you from pulling whatever you desire out of your
> own hat.
>
> > There's a lot that could complicate the search, but I don't
> > think much does, certainly not what you said.
>
> Of course not. I am only a fool, ignorant of opt. soundlaws.

The words appears, as
*katt-/*kant-/*ka:t-/*kass-/*kans-/*ka:s-
all over the place
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55551?var=0&l=1
having to do with a military organization which most likely was borrowed from elsewhere,
see thread following
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65159?var=0&l=1
meaning originally an organized group of hundred men (cavalry?)
of which I suspect PIE *kent-om to be a pl.gen.
Cf. also Venetic 'kanta rumana' "the Roman people/community"
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67913?var=0&l=1

I never got around to translating Kuhn's article on the geminate problem in Germanic
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46155?var=0&l=1

Another word group comes to mind with the same impossible set of geminates and the same partial violation of Grimm etc, namely the one around 'cunnus':
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46174
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62677



Torsten