Re: Romanized Bastarnians

> >
> > (GK)
> > > you can proceed to read Shchukin in his original: cf.
> > > krotov.info/history/09/3/schukin.html
> >
> > > (This is) the classic article on Slavic beginnings
> > > written eight years after your citation from the
> > > 1989 Shchukin volume. It has a lot on Bastarnia,
> > > none of which supports you.
> >
> > None of which contradicts me.
> >
> >
> > GK: So you've read the piece? Point out the passages
> > where he supports your views about events in the
> > 90-50 BCE period. Esp. your notion that the population
> > shifts both Shchukin and Nosevych date as of 50 CE ->
> > actually occurred more than one hundred years earlier,
> > and affected different areas of Przeworsk than per
> > their analysis.
> >
> http://krotov.info/history/09/3/schukin.html
> 'П.Н.Третьяков предполагал: когда во II веке н.э.
> возникла черняховская общность, носители зарубинецкой
> культуры Среднего Поднепровья были вынуждены отступить на
> север и северо-восток, а после гуннского нашествия и
> крушения Черняхова вернулись уже в виде раннеисторических
> славян. Идея оказалась в общем плодотворной, хотя и
> выявился затем ряд неточностей. Черняховская культура
> возникла не во II в. н.э., а не ранее 20-60-х годов III
> века (Щукин 1976; Szczukin 1981; �"ороховский 1989;
> Шаров 1992), и не черняховцы, а сарматы в середине I
> в. н.э. заставили носителей зарубинецкой культуры
> сдвинуться на север (Щукин 1972; Щукин 1994: 232-239).'
>
> "P.N. Tretyakov suggested that when the Cherniakhov
> community emerged in the II century AD, the bearers of
> the Zarubintsy culture of Middle Dnieper were forced to
> retreat to the north and northeast, and after the
> invasion of the Huns and the collapse of Chernyakhov
> already returned in the form of early-history Slavs.
> The idea proved generally fruitful, although it later
> revealed a number of inaccuracies. The Chernyakhovsk
> culture did not emerge in the II cent. CE, but not
> earlier than 20-60s of III century (Shchukin 1976;
> Szczukin 1981 Gorokhovskiy 1989, Sharov 1992), and it
> was not the Chernyakhov people, but Sarmatians in the
> middle of the I cent. BC who forced carriers of the
> Zarubintsy culture to move to the north (Shchukin 1972,
> Shchukin 1994: 232-239)."
>
> I don't understand the way you think, George.
>
>
> *****GK: Your Google translator has let you down.
> "в середине I в. н.э." means "in the middle of the 1rst c. CE"
> (=50 AD), NOT "in the middle of the I cent. BC"....****

So it has. Some asshat user must have chosen to tell it that 'н.э.' translates to 'BC'. Next time I'll check the translation better.

I looked through Shchukin's text. He doesn't state explicitly how he has dated the Atmoni and Sidoni's last stand and flight from Sarmatians. My suspicion is that dating has been done by a coupling to Farzoy as the sole purveyor of violence around that time.

ibd.
'“Славянская” зарубинецкая культура спокойно существовала до середины I в. н.э., когда она была разрушена нашествием сарматов. Часть населения отошла на северо-восток и восток, часть â€" на запад, образовав на Ð'олыни, вместе с обитавшими уже здесь пшеворцами, зубрецкую группу памятников, исследованную за последние годы Ð".Н.Козаком (Козак 1991).'

"The 'Slavic' Zarubintsy culture quietly existed until the middle of I century CE, when it was destroyed by the invasion of the Sarmatians. One part of the population moved away to the north-east and east, one part to the west, having formed in Volhynia, together with the settled already here Przeworskers, the Zubretskaya group of monuments, explored in recent years by D.N. Kozak (Kozak, 1991)."

This sounds to me like a temporal lacuna being filled out. I better take a look at Kozak (1991)

> P.S. If need be I can verify other passages. You've found a way to
> descramble the cyrillic so that it can be read. Good.
>

I post directly on the site, after switching tools -> code to UTF-8. It still screws up some of capital Cyrillic and Greek letters.


It seems to me none of those researchers Shchukin mentions have considered multilingual slaver-slaves societies (pre-feudal?), with a warring aristocracy at the top and a farming population at the bottom speaking different languages and little linguistic contact between them. Think East and central Europe Middle Ages.

Here's a scenario from me:

Jastorf: Celtic top, Germanic bottom

->
Przeworsk:
Celtic dies out;
Proto - Low German top;
Venetic trader layer,
Venetic influences Proto - Low German (as Schrijver's language of geminates),
Venetic dies out;
Western Slavic bottom

->
Zarubintsy:
Proto - High German top (from Przeworsk),
Eastern Slavic bottom

->
Zubretskaya:
Proto - High German top (from Zarubintsy),
Proto - Low German middle,
West Slavic bottom



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