Re: & Hundred &

From: Torsten
Message: 68264
Date: 2011-12-12

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "The Egyptian Chronicles" <the_egyptian_chronicles@...> wrote:
>
> PIOTR Wrote :
>
>
> A similar use of <hund> in decad names is found in West Germanic
> (most consistently in Old English), but there <hund> comes first:
>
> 70 hund-seofontig
> 80 hund-eahtatig
> 90 hund-nigontig
> 100 hund-têontig (= hund)
> 110 hund-aendlaeftig
> 120 hund-twelftig
>
> The correspondence <sibuntêhund> = <hund-seofontig> suggests that
> the correct division of <sibuntêhund> is <sibuntê-hund>, where <-tê>
> corresponds to <-tig>. Since <-tê> can hardly derive from Goth.
> *-tigjus, we can hypothesise that the more archaic neuter variant
> *-texu < *-téxu: survives here:
>
> *sibuntexuxunda- > *sibunte:xunda (haplology combined with
> compensatory lengthening)
>
> I don't think this dialectal use of <hund> in upper decad names has
> anything to do with the original function of PIE *dk^mtóm as a
> Gen.pl. form ("of sets of ten"). It's quite evident that <hund> in
> these constructions means simply "a hundred (or something of that
> order anyway)", and that the decad names in the range 70-120 denoted
> such "approximate hundreds" in an explicit manner, with some
> redundancy.
>
> (A curiosity: Crimean Gothic had <sada> '100', an Iranian loan.)
>
> Comments welcome.
>
>
>
> ISHINAN: I would add that the "curiosity" you alluded to above is
> repeating itself verbatim in Arabic. As 's.dd', according to Lane,
> is a Persian word <sada> for 100 which is used often by Arabs.
>
> However, amazingly, in another situation, Arabic 's.dd' (a homonym)
> means side, beside, and aside.
>
>
> Compare with:
>
> sîdôn f. Seite. an. sía f. Seite (des menschlichen und tierischen
> Körpers), Küste; as. sîda, afries. ags. sîde f. (engl. side); ahd.
> sîta, sîtta, mhd. sîte f., nhd. Seite. Substantiviertes Adj. sîda.
>
>
> side (n.) O.E. side "flanks of a person, the long part or aspect of
> anything," from P.Gmc. *sithon (cf. O.S. sida, O.N. siða, M.Du.
> side, O.H.G. sita, Ger. Seite).
>
>
>
> It is also pertinent to mention that 'hnd' in Classical Arabic (a
> non-Indo-European language) means a hundred, a hundred camels, a
> hundred other things, a hundred years.
>
>
> Compare with
>
> hundred O.E. hundred "the number of 100, a counting of 100," from
> W.Gmc. *hundrath (cf. O.N. hundrað, Ger. hundert), first element is
> P.Gmc. *hunda- "hundred" (cf. Goth. hund, O.H.G. hunt), from PIE
> *kmtom "hundred" (cf. Skt. satam, Avestan satem, Gk. hekaton, L.
> centum, Lith. simtas, O.Ir. cet, Bret. kant "hundred").
>
>
> hundred; pl. u; n. A hundred :-- Getalu vel heápas vel hundredu
> centurias, Ælfc. Gl. 96; Som. 76, 25; Wrt. Voc. 53, 34. Ðeáh ðe
> heora hundred seó though there be a hundred of them, Ps. Th. 89, 10.
> On lxv and þreó hundræd hi beóþ tódlede they are divided into three
> hundred and sixty-five, Nar. 49, 25. Seox hundred wintra and iii and
> hundseofenti wintra, Chr. 656; Erl. 33, 34. Hundrað scillinga centum
> denarios, Mt. Kmbl. Lind. 18, 28. On twegera hundred penega wurþe.
> Jn. Skt. 6, 7. Wið þrím hundred penegon, 12, 5. Mid twám hundred
> penegon, Mk. Skt. 6, 40. Hí ðá ston hundredon and fíftigon
> discubuerunt per centenos et per quinquagenos, 37. [O. Frs. hundred,
> hunderd: Icel. hundrað: O. H. Ger. hundert: Ger. hundert. Two
> etymologies are suggested for the word; according to one hunder-
> corresponds to Lat. centur-ia; according to the other -red (Icel.
> rað) is a suffix akin to the -ræðr which is found in Icel. átt-rædr,
> etc. v. Grmm. Gesch. D. S. 175-6.]
>
> Lastly, I would like to mention that A.E. has 'sht' which means a
> hundred. The reading 'shnt' has been also proposed.
>
> The gist of mentioning all these parallels in Arabic (a non
> Indo-European language) demonstrates how flimsy PIE reconstruction
> can be. Not everything advertised is to be taken as sacrosanct. A
> simple comparison, which includes the FULL extent of the available
> isoglosses (often extending to non-Indo-European languages), can be
> very persuasive. Reconstruction ought not to be pick and choose.
>
>
> All the above examples, with full definitions in Arabic and English
> dictionaries, can be viewed by clicking the following URL:
>
> www.theegyptianchronicles.com/LINKS/HUND.html
>

cf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55551
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55557

Also, I get the impression the Arabic has a great lexicographic tradition, but that the connection with languages it met during the phase of expansion of Islam has not been explored to the same degree.

For this particular complex, I imagine an origin among the steppe peoples as designations a particular organisation of 'conscription' of cavalry-based troops and their deployment on the battlefield, and that this particular word spread with that type of cavalry organisation spreading with incursions of steppe peoples into Europe. Are there traces of something similar in Arabic?


Torsten