From: Torsten
Message: 68261
Date: 2011-12-11
>A wild guess: the division of the
>
> >
> > > And we certainly shouldn't forget the most typical of all, those
> > > from the whole *ka/unt- etc complex: Eng. hunt with original /u/
> > > vs. Gothic hinþan, Sw hinna which are reorganized as a class III
> > > strong verb.
> >
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62525
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62572
> >
> > Re the Estonian comitative suffix -ga, did I mention the Latin
> > postposition (with pronouns) -cum "with"?
> >
> > Which reminds me
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/6791
> >
> > Note Engl. and, German und; a/u alternation; form *(h)a/und-?
> >
> > As for the high decades in Gothic and OE: In some Gmc languages
> > the ones are before the tens: German 'ein und siebzig' etc, in
> > others it's the other way round: 'seventy one', or it might have
> > been 'seventy and one'.
> >
> > There's your 'hund': someone left it on when there are zero ones.
> >
> > The 'hund' might as well be interpreted here as a comitative
> > suffix as the word "and", or perhaps the historical development
> > was just that: "crowd, war/hunting party" -> comitative suffix ->
> > "and".
> >
> >
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65061
> > And now a quote:
> > Lehmann: A Gothic Etymological Dictionary
> > 'Þ61. þusundi cardinal number f io: Neh 7.34, pl þusundjos Mk 5.13
> > khílioi, thousand; þusundi-faþs m i khilíarkhos officer, leader of
> > a thousand, only nom sg J 18.12 and dat pl þusundifadaim Mk 6.21.
> > Cf suffix in bruþfaþs. Use of suffix in hunda-faþs, þusundi-faþs,
> > and *swnagoga-faþs, independent, not loan translation, despite
> > similarity of formation; Iran þata-pati, Arm hariwra-pet
> > centurion; Iran *hazahra-pati, Arm hazara-pet leader of a
> > thousand; Arm z^ol/ovrda-pet ruler of the synagogue Benveniste
> > 1963 BSLP 58: [art] 41ff,54-57.'
> >
> > Until I read Benveniste's article, I think I'll remain skeptical
> > of the idea the Gothic is not a loan translation.
> >
> > Koryakova, Epimakhov
> > The Urals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages
> > pp. 213-214
> > 'Social Organizations of Eurasian Nomads
> > ...
> > The military-potestal relations were in competence with the
> > organization, usually called a "tribe." The tribe regulated
> > contact with other tribes, to resolve political and military
> > problems. The tribe could be of dual (left and right "wings") or
> > triple (left and right wings plus a center), and was militarily
> > organized by the decimal structure (i.e., units of thousands,
> > hundred, and tens with a hierarchy of leaders) 4) (Taskin 1989).
> > In peacetime, the dispersed character of the nomadic society did
> > not require a great central power thus the power of the chiefs was
> > not very significant, but in wartime, a central power was
> > necessary. The amazing ability of nomads to create large armies in
> > case of military danger or political contests is well known. A
> > leader's personality should not be underestimated in the process
> > of sociopolitical consolidation of nomadic societies. The history
> > of the Hsiung-nu tribes is a good example. Cribb (1991: 55)
> > stresses the territorial aspect of a tribe: "The tribe constitutes
> > the operational unit through which units of population are matched
> > to units of territory."
> > '
> >
> > Like I said ;-)
> > The "wing" aspect of *ka/unt-, the "people/tribe" aspect of it,
> > the decimal system (of Germanic) intertwined with it.
> Cf.
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64957
>
> I left out a note to the above quote, which I shouldn't have, I
> discover, since it's relevant:
> '4) The first historical evidence about such a system relates to
> the Hsiung-nu - nomadic tribes that occupied the Mongolian and
> Trans-Baikal steppes from the third to the first centuries BC. Their
> empire was divided into three parts: center, left wing, and right
> wing. They were commanded by highest chief (the Shan-yu) and his
> closest relatives; in particular, the left wing was commanded by
> elder sun of the Shan-yu the heir to the throne. Shan-yu had
> supreme power. The next level in the Hsiung-nu hierarchy was
> occupied by the tribal chiefs and elders. The army was based on the
> decimal principle: it was divided into "thousands," which were
> headed by tribal chiefs. "Thousands" were divided into "hundreds,"
> and "tens," which were commanded by clan leaders of different ranks.
> The systems of military and civil hierarchy existed in parallel
> (Kradin 2001). The same system was recorded for the Mongolian
> society.'
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsiung-nu
> (BTW I'm a Yeniseian believer)
> It would appear from that article that the military decimal system
> was a novelty under Modu Chanyu for the Hsiung-nu
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modu_Chanyu
>
> And there I suddenly stumbled over this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumen
> Wow
> Seems I better get a Turkic etymological dictionary
> Digression
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyumen
> Main thread, important;
>
>The Gothic
> So, "thousand" id perhaps *tums-kant- > *þuNs-hant-?
> Perhaps the '+- k- words' are part of that language too?
>
> > Also, if this was the primary use of *pot- "master", the
> > unstressed position explains the root /o/.
>
> Cf.
> Etymologisches Wörterbuch der griechischen Sprache
>
> 'des-póte:s Gebieter, eigl. Haus-herr
> ab. déñg pato:is., ai. pátir dán, dámpatis. Herr des Hauses, Dual
> dámpati: Mann und Frau :
> des- aus idg. *dems ai. dán, ab. déñg ist Gen. zum Nom.
> do:~, do:~ma = dómos Haus, s. d.
> Ai. dam.patis. zeigt den reinen Stamm in der Komposition.
> Dazu despózo: gebieten. S. d. vorige.
> Ähnliche Bildungen, aber im ersten Teil verschieden, sind
> ai. já:spatis eigl. Herr der Familie (já:s Nachkomme,
> g^ene- in gígnomai),
> ksl. gospodI Herr,
> lat. hospes (*hosti-potis) Gastfreund.
> Vgl. Bartholomae Ar. Forschgn. I, 70 f., IF. 3, 100f. O. Richter
> KZ. 36, 111 ff., wo weitere Literatur.
> Vgl. dámar und dápedon.'
>
> with exactly the genitive -s Douglas would like to see,
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65457
> which makes one wonder how that tumen 'army' is related to
> IE dom- "household etc", Norse dom-r "verdict"
> de Vries
> 'dómr m. 'urteil, gericht',
> nisl. fär. dómur, nnorw schw da. dom.
> > finn. tuomio, lp. N. duobmo (Thomsen 2, 224).
> got. do:ms, ae. afr. as. do:m, ahd. tuom.'
> cf ibd.
> 'eindoemi 'selbstbestimmungsrecht',
> German -tum in Fürstentum etc.
>
> Cf.
> http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/dmpd.html
>
>
> > At least we now know what kind of society the *ka/unt- root is
> > from. Now why did Celts etc also use that organization (Tricassi
> > etc)?
> >