Re: Germani

From: stlatos
Message: 67974
Date: 2011-08-07

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> W dniu 2011-08-07 19:27, stlatos pisze:
>
> > OE heorl \ eorl corr. to L Heruli , so that is one with ev., and ev.
> > that the version w/out h- became much more common. The giants Ymir ,
> > Hymir , and Gymir show the variation.
>
> Much more common indeed. <heorl> is a late 10th-century hapax, while
> <eorl> occurs hundreds of times in Anglo-Saxon texts of all ages, so
> obviously their status is very unequal and nothing justifies placing
> <heorl> berore <eorl>, as you do above.


If you mean "before" I'm not saying OE heorl is older than OE eorl , but that in PGmc h\x\G\0 variation existed from PIE x()- . The Latin ev. is one part, but an important one due to age.


At the end of Old English,
> Cockney-style h-dropping was already beginning to spread in England,
> especially in Mercia, and we have examples of both <h>-omission and
> unhistorical <h>-insertion. All that has precious little to do with the
> interpretation of Germanic names recorded hundreds of years earlier.
> Incidentally, the "Heruli" were first mentioned in th 3rd century, when
> even upper-class Romans surely dropped their aitches all the time.


That doesn't have anything to do with whether they'd record h- in a new word for no reason, especially when some of the languages they'd encounter would have many h- and 0- in opposition.


>
> Ymir anf Gymir were nor even the same fellow.


That's why I clearly wrote "giants" not "giant". Why do you keep making arguments against things I never said? Anyway, the existence of Ymir , Hymir , and Gymir , from 3 dif. words is almost impossible, and they share enough characteristics besides being giants to make a common origin likely.


I chose an example from myth that often retains features usually lost elsewhere, and another from an old title as old as attested Gmc.


That's only ex. from (h)V-, there's also:

hr-:

orophé: = roof/ceiling G;
vs
hróf OIc; OE; roof E;

(h)arundo: = reed/cane L; ( < *harudo:n *harudn+ )
vs
hréod OE;


-hr-:

*vixY-r.ó+ > *wii-r.ó+; wír OE; wire E; Gl? >> vi:riae = (Celtic) bracelets L;
vs
*vixY-r.ó+ > wiXY-Ró+ > weh-Ra+ > we:-ra+; wiara = fine goldwork OHG;


and plenty of other ex. of e: ( = e:2 ) from ex() with an x() that was retained longer than almost all others for no apparent reason in many positions.