Re: floor

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Alternatively, we could follow Kuhn and propose the existence of
> > > > not one but two substrate layers for Germanic in the NWBlock
> > > > area:
> > > >
> > > > 1 a non-IE language, called the ar-/ur-language by Kuhn
> > > >
> > > > 2 an IE language, spoken but for a short time before Germanic
> > > > took over
> > > >
> > > > and assign the Germanic-like NWBlock roots to the latter, eg
> > > > Meid's German flur, English floor, NWB placename Plore, OI lar
> > > > "field"
> > > >
> > > Matasović reconstructs Proto-Celtic *fla:ro- 'floor', and he
> > > quotes Old Irish lár 'ground, surface, middle', although the
> > > semantic shift to 'field' is straightforward (cfr. Basque larre
> > > 'meadow', probably a Celtic loanword).
> >
> > Why would Celtic *(f)la:rom, if borrowed into Basque, be reflected
> > as <larre> rather than *laro?
> >
>
> Trask:
> The History of Basque
>
> p. 144
> '3.7 RHOTICS
> In all likelihood, Pre-Basque R and r were a trill and a tap, respectively, and they probably contrasted only between vowels. Elsewhere the contrast was neutralized (though old Z[uberoan] exhibited a contrast between the two rhotics before another consonant). In modern varieties, the result of the neutralization is usually a trill, at least in careful speech, even in Romance loans like brontze 'bronze' and krabelin 'carnation', but there is evidence, as we shall see, that this may not always have been so.'
>
> p. 169
> '3.15 TREATMENT OF LOAN WORDS FROM LATIN AND EARLY ROMANCE
> Latin nouns are usually borrowed in their accusative forms:
> ahate 'duck' < anate,
> ohore 'honour' < honore,
> bake 'peace' < pace,
> ingude 'anvil' < incude,
> errege 'king' < rege,
> lore 'flower' < flore.
> But there are a few instances of borrowed nominatives:
> gorputz 'body' < corpus,

Latin <corpus> is neuter, so there is no reason to suppose that <gorputz> was not borrowed from the accusative.

> lapitz 'slate' < lapis 'stone',

Possibly borrowed from Romance rather than Latin; cf. Spanish <lapiz> 'pencil'.

*****R Most definitely from Romance, in Old Spanish <lapiz> was pronounced /lapits/

> maizter 'master shepherd' < magister,

Again, possibly borrowed from Romance; cf. Old French <maistre>.

***R But Basque was not in contact with Old French --try Old Gascon, Old Catalan, Old Aragonese

> apaez (and variants) 'priest' < abbas 'abbot'.

Used primarily as a title, and probably actually borrowed from the form of address, i.e. vocative.

> Adjectives are borrowed in the accusative singular masculine/neuter:
> ziku 'dry' < siccu,
> xahu 'clean' < sanu 'healthy'.
> A rare nominative is
> bortitz 'strong, violent' < fortis.'

Possibly borrowed from <Fortis> used effectively as a cognomen. I suspect that <malmutz> 'sly' was similarly borrowed from the cognomen <Balbus>, during the time when Late Latin /b/ was approximated by Old Basque /mb/, later reduced to /mm/ and then /m/.

***R The b/m dichotomy is common in Ibero-Romance

> No particular mention of the treatment of Latin -r- or -rr-.
>
> Löpelmann
> Etymologisches Wörterbuch der baskischen Sprache
> 'larre Heide, Steppe, Weide, Trift, Äsungsplatz, Gemeindewiese, Wüste, Heidekraut;
> Präf. larre- wild, nicht gezähmt, unkultiviert (Tiere, Pflanzen);
> Adj. bäurisch, flegelig, unmassgeblich (Mensch):
> -aitsurr, -haitsurr, -haintsurr Hacke, Karst;
> -haintsur-go/ -ko Behackung, Bodenlockerung;
> -haintsurtu mit der Hacke urbar machen;
> -aldi Viehweide, Trift;
> -aroÅŸa Muskatrose;
> -atu, -katu auf die Weide treiben, auf dem Brachland weiden lassen, weiden;
> -katse Weiden, Weidenlassen;
> -behi wilde Kuh;
> -behorr frei weidende Stute, die nicht arbeiten muss;
> -di weite Wiesenfläche;
> -gia Heide, Heidewiese, Anger;
> -gison Senner, Gebirgler, Wilder,Feldhüter;
> -joan verwildern (Land);
> -ki Steppe, mit Heidekraut bewachsenes Gelände, Weide, Anger;
> -lili Lilie, wilde Blume;
> -martsuka wilde Maulbeere;
> -oilarr Birkhahn;
> -oilo Birkhenne, Haselhuhn;
> -olo Trespe, wilder Hafer;
> -othe Heuschrecke, Feldgrille (vgl. larhote), Ginster (Nbf. llar-othe);
> -pitiiti Zaunkönig;
> -pothe Grille, Heuschrecke;
> -ratu auf die Weide gehn, in die Heide ziehen, auf die Weide führen;
> -şari Weidegeld für Benutzung fremden Geländes;
> -ÅŸu Heidefeuer, Irrlicht;
> -ta weites, gewöhnl. eingehegtes Weide- od. Wiesengelände;
> -[e]tšeki Feuersbrunst in den Bergen od. in einem Dorf;
> -šori, -tšori Heidelerche;
> -utsi brach liegen lassen;
> -sorri Schaf-, Rinderzecke.
>
> Nbf. larra-.

This is the old compounding form, no longer productive, showing Minor Apocope (cf. <etxaburu> etc.) which we find in the surname Larramendi 'Meadow Mountain'. If a mountain was characterized by meadows, obviously they were montane meadows, so it is difficult to believe that a Celtic word for 'level surface, floor' was borrowed to indicate them. Basque <lau> was borrowed from Latin <pla:num> and it retains the original sense 'plain, plane, flat surface'.

> § vmtl. fz.;
> aus afz. larris (mlat. larricium) leeres, unangebautes Feld,
> wohl aus
> ndl. laar leer, bezw. laer unangebautes Feld
> (mndl. laar Waldlichtung).'
>
> This raises many questions.
>
> It seems Basque -r- and -rr- correspond to the the similar situation in Spanish. But Old French supposed had only one rhotic. Perhaps Löplmann's connection with Dutch laar (loan from Celtic?) is fanciful.

Yes, I would say fanciful. In several words Basque -rr- seems to have originated from *-rd-. The most obvious is <ezker> (with article <ezkerra>) 'left-handed' which clearly corresponds to Spanish <izquierdo>. I do not see how Basque, Old French, or Medieval Latin could have gotten -rr- out of a Celtic or Germanic word with simple -r-.

But before proceeding further, I should check what Du Cange has to say about <larricium>.

DGK